con report: vividcon 2008

VVC was, per usual, fantastic and incredibly fun, and per usual, left me shellshocked and vaguely punchy after, which is why Sunday nights are so necessary, because after a weekend of visual stimulation and heavy discussion, Sunday night badfic reinactments are kinda the only way to deal (and participating in badfic LARP gives you a strange appreciation for anatomy you never had before--please don't ask. Rum helped).

Panels

Color, moderated by Luminosity

This caused me to suddenly break out during movies "Oh, yellow filter! That means obsession!" and "See all that red? That's life and love and such." and being forbidden to speak at random intervals. The point she made was that color is a hardwire in us to expect certain things, which is something I'd heard before but never really considered until she showed examples and I started watching for it. I'm wondering what it says about me now that my preferred colors for wear are grey, black, white, and the muted earthshades. So I made an effort and wore the purple of transformation to dinner on Sunday night.

Again, knowing and seeing make a difference. Red, I knew, was always supposed to be a spot to call attention, which makes me wonder if running a movie with a dominant color red would change the expectation of what we would be looking for. For that matter, what the movie was trying to say. Personally, learning something probably everyone else already knew is pretty damn fascinating.

What Do We Want from Vids Now, moderated by Cesperanza and Counteragent

There was also a discussion on the evolution of vids from where they were and where they're going, along with vidders--a lot was hit, including outside source, multiple source, creating source, reworking the same pivotal scenes, etc. I think the point that fascinated me most was the transition that will inevitably come with vidders moving into the long form, or the fan movie. As a viewer, it's exciting to consider. I had a few minutes with harriet_spy to discuss our enthusiasm, which I dearly wish I'd followed up on (God, VVC is like the WHEE SHINY OVER THERE so damn *much*, I only got two of the things I meant to do here done), and she discusses it here.

I do like the idea of vidders embracing long form as well as short form, and seeing what comes out of it. I'm a huge proponent of fannish creativity; it reminds me of something a long ago program manager said about a job, how you could grow inside the job or grow out of the job, but that growth was necessary either way. Vidding exemplifies both the celebration of limits, the expansion of them, and the breaking of them. It reminds me a lot of why I love to build with leggos and other building sets so much, and when I'd only want to live to work inside the limits of leggos and when I'd drag out those other things I can't remmeber the name of and build a carousel. It's just *fun*.

I Suck, moderated by fan_eunice and sisabet

Well, this is about--wait for it--the "I Suck" litany that goes through everyone's heads. I won't say because they gave us gifts of chocolate that we love them best, but you know, I will say if all moderators want to bribe for good reviews, this really works as incentive. A lot of the steps and discussion that went on pretty much follow the pattern most writers have as well, with vid specific twists, as vidders do not take advantage fo WIP day and really, they should. Yes, I mean, sisabet and John is Jesus.

A lot of the advice crosses over nicely (know when you are feeling constructive and when you need chocolate and hugs, walk away if you think you are going to delete, go eat and pee, which is practical advice that I remmeber thete1 might have given me during the writing of A Handful of Dust though I think hers was "GO SLEEP NOW JESUS CHRIST YOU HAVE BEEN DOING THIS SINCE DUSK AND I SEE THE SUN HAS RISEN" and you know, I think everyone could benefit from this advice. Eat, sleep, pee. Right there). If they post the list, I'll link up, since I think it applies to the fanartists and writers as well.

In-Depth Vid Review, moderated by Sisabet and Luminosity

The vids discussed were the ones I mentioned above, which again, when people start meta'ing, I'll link up, because they both had some interesting points I'm still pondering.

Vids

Personal thoughts, which are probably of interest only to me:

Climbing Up the Walls by obsessive24

I will speak personally on this, my reaction is highly informed by the fact that Smallville didn't break me to incest, it just reminded me that in eighth grade, I read every VC Andrews book I could get my hands on and cheered Christopher and Catherine-oh-my-God-she-was-a-Mary-Sue along. And before that, I spent a great deal of free time writing up highly detailed genealogies of royalty and nobility starting with pre-Ptolematic Egypt. So fictional or historical incest, unlike contemporary/current, doesn't really have the same effect on me.

So the incest wasn't shocking. What got me was the handling, not to mention the utter beauty. There's a lot about it technically (and I say this with very low knowledge of the technical aspects) that appealed to me that usually doesn't in vids, and it's one of the few times that I fell into the theme almost immediately, since the music was about as perfect as you can get without being able to custom order it.

I came out of Climbing Up the Walls with the idea of not just the incest and older sibling in some ways as predator, but a thought about how the younger (and invaribley "special" sibling) as both a victim and willing collaborator in their victimness. For some reason, I get the feeling this wouldn't be the most popular reading, and frankly, I could be wrong, and I need more viewings to work out where I picked that up, but there's a high possibility that the very thing that makes them need protection also leads them to make absolutely sure they have someone that will be both protector, outside focus, and someone that, despite what they are/do/will be, will never ever leave them. In other words, the obsession not only goes both ways, but that it's constructed specifically by both parties to create a tight space of unconditional acceptance. I will do anything for you can also be read as I need you to do anything for me.

I will link when this vid goes up. I'd like to see other reactions.

ETA: More on this in comments.

Gloria by sweetestdrain

The other, Gloria, The Sarah Conner Chronicles, Sarah/Cameron, was fascinating to me as an exploration of the purely physical, or rather, Cameron as the gun that doubles as the sex toy. I'm really uncertain on my reading here, but the focus on Cameron's physicality--first her badassness, the weapon she is, and then with her dancing, her body, her beauty--came off as less an emotional reaction to her, or interest in her mind, her person, as it was--I'm not sure of the wording on this one. I want to say it wasn't about seeing her as her--it was about seeing her in terms of her usefulness. Fucking her and sending her to kill don't seem that far apart in terms of what to *do* with her, but are a far cry from what to be to her, or discovering who she is.

There are about ten other vids I fell for hard, but these are the ones I discussed actively so remember best. If I get a chance and when the vids go up, will put up links. Cause seriously, these were awesome. All of them.

Vid links

Placeholder for vids as they go online.

Highway Café of the Damned by jmtorres and niqaeli, Stargate (movie and SG1) - oh fantastic. This made me *ridiculously* happy. And just--okay, Daniel just made me laugh and sigh and smile a *lot*. And the song is just so amazingly appropriate, you have no idea.

Comments

[out-there.livejournal.com]

Red, I knew, was always supposed to be a spot to call attention, which makes me wonder if running a movie with a dominant color red would change the expectation of what we would be looking for. For that matter, what the movie was trying to say. Personally, learning something probably everyone else already knew is pretty damn fascinating.

Huh. I have, like, no actual *input* here but this is interesting. It makes me wonder about the colors used in SV, since that's one of the very few shows that constantly used colour coding for characters in a way that I *noticed* (other shows may do it but not obviously enough for me to see it).

[seperis.livejournal.com]

I didn't either until she showed us clips of three movies adn showed the color shift. It was utterly riveting to see it.

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

If you've seen my post you know I vehemently disagree with your Climbing reading :) Or rather, I can totally see it but then I don't. And in a way, I think your reading moves away from victim to collaborator, right? Can you be party to your own victimization? Clearly! But is that what's really happening in the vid? Or can we ever know! (I think maybe at that point it really matters how one reads the source text, and maybe the vid remains as ambiguous as the text?)

[seperis.livejournal.com]

oooh yeah. *g* My reading also comes from a metatextual pov as well, not merely the vid as constructed by the vidder. I kind of want to read the incest as a metaphor, actually, instead of either AU or constructed reality, with less to do with actual incest and more to do with the locked and frozen positions of the people participating in it--ie Dean, Nathan, and Simon forever locked into protector/provider and their siblings locked into special object and protectee. For me, the stills contribute to the idea they're still locked in those childhood relationships of older/younger without re-establishing identity outside those carefully predefined boundaries that would at least partially dissolve or be rewritten somewhat at adulthood.

I do think victim as collaborator is a very possible interpretation of the source as well as the vid itself, but that returns to the canon sharply on how much the three objects interact with the protectors. Whether by conscious design or habit or hell, the universe, their existence and their needs trump the identity of the protector to the point of them, especially in Dean's case, mostly in Simon's, and partially in Nathan's, having no identity outside that known bond.

I could make an argument on parental collaboration in this; while not necessarily being people that would encourage their kids having sex, the exclusionary power of that bond to not only the detriment but the absolute exclusion of other (non-familial) bonds doesn't lend itself to any kind of possibility of a healthy relationship period, much less an extra-familial one.

A point that comes out is that the younger are all very special with Very Special Destinies or Very Special Gifts.

This one fascinates me, because while the protector portion is explored fairly often, I can't help but consider the idea that the three that not only allow but encourage that focus aren't exactly fighting to either loosen those bonds or escape them. Again, especially with Sam, who is both old enough and had a life outside of Dean and family. That he came back to it and made himself comfortable in Dean's utter focus does say something. What that is, I'm not entirely sure yet.

I could do this one for hours. It's fascinating.

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly that!

The older ones could get out at any time. They're not bound in this fucked up claustrophobic life and on some level choose (by whatever measure of choice :) to be there and protect and sacrifice themselves for their siblings.

So to make them the abuser to me really kind of covers that extremely strong need of the younger to continue to need and take and taker and take...

And yes to everything else. I actually think the vid might have worked quite similarly without any sex, just looking at these overinvested, overdetermined familial bonds at the exclusion of everyone else and tying them forever together all the same...

[seperis.livejournal.com]

So to make them the abuser to me really kind of covers that extremely strong need of the younger to continue to need and take and taker and take...

Yes, this. But that *does* make them complicit in what's going on between them, even if it's not sexual (though considering, sex might be the healthiest thing they're actually doing to/with each other on the comparison scale). Knowing you can ask and always receive, always, doesn't mean you *have* to ask, but I don't get the impression any of them seriously considered ever not asking.

Taking it to the place of actual incest, speaking from a purely practical standpoint, offering sex as well as need completely isolates their protector in themselves without exception--at that point, neither party has any need to go anywhere else ever, even to satisfy a basic bodily need. Ie, the person who owns your soul also owns your body as well. It's fucked up, but it's not necessarily illogical in their positions of vulnerability to offer that, or take it--to keep asking and use that asking to gain another hold. If I were vicious, I'd run on how that creates another layer of guilt for the protector as well, and that guilt creates another bond as well.

I'm *not* sure I believe that part, but in these three relationships, I think the reading could go that direction.

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

The thing that I love about our conversation is that I'm thinking of dozens of stories for every single potential reading that I know i've read...

In that way, the vid's amazing source text analysis but also comments on the way we're reading them...

[Then again, it does so of course already by showing all the cest happy fans here's what would really happen if you got what you wanted...kind of like early Joss of I Will Remember You and Something Blue (as opposed to the later one :)

[seperis.livejournal.com]

God yes. The multiple readings possible are *fascinating* to me both in the idea of who has agency here and where they got stuck in the cycle of mutually assured destruction. It fills me with glee.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

The older ones could get out at any time.

I don't think so. I haven't seen the vid, but from an SPN perspective at least, to be reductive, the whole tragedy of Dean Winchester is that the only way he can leave is to die, and even there, he's dying/going to hell to save Sam.

Sam chooses to leave (numerous times) and comes back only reluctantly, and only full-time after his attempt at normal life goes up in flames (Sam only gets to be the rebellious son because Dean is the 'good' one). Of course, the first time things do go wrong for him, he immediately calls Dean/comes back, and whenever he's in trouble, his first instinct, instilled at a young age, is to call for Dean, and even as an adult, that hasn't changed (even if the show itself can be read as the renegotiating of Sam and Dean's relationship from older/younger to equal partners, with or without any sex being involved). Sam wants to be the focus of Dean's attention because it makes him feel safe.

Nathan, otoh, yeah, Nathan can leave, Nathan can pretend that he's only protecting Peter in order to protect himself/his reputation as a politician. Peter is the one rejecting the family here, same as Sam, but Nathan doesn't have to continue to follow after him and clean up his messes - I think you can read Nathan as motivated by selfishness - he has to clean up after Peter so it doesn't reflect on him, whether there's still some pull of protective older brother in there beneath the surface or not.

Simon... I think Simon is the most conflicted, because Simon, unlike Dean, wants to leave - he explicitly thinks at one point "If it weren't for [River], I'd be there right now." (Objects in Space, quoted from memory), and it's also canonical that he gave up everything he had to find and save River, so he had left, but he allows himself to be pulled back in when River reaches out to him for help and their parents abdicate their responsibility to her.

Obviously, I haven't seen the vid, so I don't know how this works in relation to that, but. This is generally my read of the three relationships, two of which I've actively written about repeatedly.

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

Nono. I was totally unclear.

He clearly can't leave within the emotional logic of the show--he effectively *has* no choice.

looking at it from the outside, however, he could leave demon hunting behind in a way Sam, who has visions and demons killing his gf can't.

That's all I meant. (Not sure that makes it any clearer, but yes, I totally agree that short of amnesiac erasure of his upbringing Dean cannot leave!)

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

Ah, sorry, yeah. Sam has external forces acting on him, hunting him, in a way Dean does not (except for the FBI, which threat has been currently ameliorated).

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Hmm. At least insofar as River is concerned, Simon might actually be the *most* trapped in role of the three of them. River's mental stability, unlike that of Sam and Nathan, makes her, at least currently, not ready or able to cope alone. If Dean and Sam can be read as a kind of emotional hobbling, then Simon and River could be--hmm, an intellectual one? I'm not sure how to phrase the difference between those two.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

Right. Simon, out of all of them, is the most conflicted, but also the most needed. Sam and Peter can and have had separate lives and managed pretty well on their own (though I still think Peter is dumber than a box of hair on occasion), whereas River really is seriously damaged in physical and mental ways beyond just the emotional fucked-up-ness of the other two, and in need of a caretaker, and even though she gets some healing through the series and the movie, she probably always will be.

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

I kind of want to read the incest as a metaphor, actually, instead of either AU or constructed reality, with less to do with actual incest and more to do with the locked and frozen positions of the people participating in it-

Right...that's an even better way to put it, I think...it's not that the incest is superfluous. It's that it's the most extreme version of what's already wrong.

Though I do think that it might be necessary to get to the breaking point of the end where blood relation turns to blood shed, where identities and mirrors are breaking all over the place as monstrous selves and others are faced...

[seperis.livejournal.com]

*nods* The incest is, in that case, not even the issue that requires exploring--a symptom of the actual problem.

Though I do think that it might be necessary to get to the breaking point of the end where blood relation turns to blood shed, where identities and mirrors are breaking all over the place as monstrous selves and others are faced...

To get to that point, both sides have to recognize it. On the part of the younger siblings, they'd have to know it was wrong, and in the case of collaborative victimhood, that it's wrong and also, wrong, both in concept (exclusionary obsession) and in action (working to strengthen that obsession). Otherwise, the elder sibling/protector would still be trapped as older sibling/protector with the added guilt of nailing the younger/vulnerable object, which wouldn't change anything short of death.

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

i need to rewatch, but how much do we get of the younger ones in the end?

There's a strong sense of the older ones which might support your initial reading again... I like the concept/action distinction!

[seperis.livejournal.com]

That I'm still working out. In the vid, I get the sense of them as objects in need pretty much constantly. In canon it's far more complex but with the same concept.

There's an entire really crass cow/milk argument I could make about how a sexual relationship would primarily benefit the younger sibling at least in terms of keeping the protector in the face of pretty much everything and everyone. Sex in these terms is the least of the problem--they could do it in every bed in the country--it becomes why do we need any lines between us? Aka--you live for me, you die for me, you protect me and feed me and make yourself into a world for me, and when I ask a question, you make yourself my answer. So at that point, sex is almost superfluous--the question isn't should we but why not? In a very real way, it almost comes back to the idea that while someone shouldn't be your everything, when your life is set up to not allow anyone else, and when it *can't* allow anyone else, it's not just inevitable that your body becomes part of it, not just a point of barter (see, protect *me*, keep *me*, and you can have this), but a way to create equality (this is something *you* want that I can give *you*). It gives them back their power and in a very twisted way, can re-equalize them.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think this is when incest stories are most interesting to me, why I find the dynamic fascinating. The happy shiny Wincest is okay, I like it, I write it sometimes, but the deep undercurrent of "I'll do this so you can never leave me, isn't that what you wanted? Don't you want what I want? How can it be wrong when we love each other so much?" is what really fascinates me. It gives me that queasy visceral thrill the happy stuff generally doesn't.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Yes. This. Very much so.

[kernezelda]

especially with Sam
Not having seen the vid, I can only disagree from my interpretation of SPN canon, which is that Sam very deliberately cut himself off from the role of protectee in the Winchester dynamic. He's been driven toward the 'special destiny' by external forces (demon) since the pilot. It took a year to go from his self-set default of wanting a 'real life', and even so, he stayed with Dean because Dean was out of control. Dean is the one who's refused to acknowledge that Sam isn't like him, and who projects all his own emotional tendencies onto Sam. While Sam originally saw Dean as the invulnerable, golden older brother/protector, he grew out of that to see Dean as a vulnerable brother/partner.
Sam knows he can't escape his destiny until he's ended the power of those external forces, which goal has only been exacerbated by Dean's absolute need to control Sam. It took two years and change for Sam to transform from a rational young man with a life on his own terms to a guilt-and-grief-ridden, driven man like his father, and Dean's utter dependency on his role as Sam's protector had a good bit to do with that.
Sam was dependent on John and Dean as a child and teen, but he is (or was) fully capable of living a life on his own emotionally stable terms. In the first season, he was in the grip of grief and accepted the diversion of hunting while seeking revenge. In the second, he had to take care of Dean, a reversal of roles somewhat. In the third, they're both too damaged to see or think clearly about much of anything, and Sam is driven into an extreme of protectiveness with Dean because of Dean's own desperate choice to do as John did.
I found the SPN arc for Sam very disturbing in the late second and third season, because every element of the series steadily pushed the audience away from examination of Sam's internal life into a confirmation of Dean's view of the world. Dean views Sam as the only thing of worth in his life, and will throw his life away in order to keep Sam alive. He's incapable of living a life on his own, whereas Sam did that successfully. Dean has never expressed an interest in what Sam cares about (and neither has the series as a whole, much), and is disturbed when Sam does show interest in things that don't interest Dean.
Only in the mid-to-late second and third seasons do I see a growing tendency to mutual obsession. Sam's focus has narrowed to Dean, and Dean's has never expanded past Sam. Frankly, it's disturbing on both character and meta-levels.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Working off current timeline, yes, that's part fo the point--Sam's place as object at this point is less as victim and more as chosen because of the fact he *has* left and then returned.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

*mulls* I do think the vid follows the text and how we interpret the text is a big part of how we read the vid. I didn't get that sense of shared blame during first viewing, but I did during the second and especially when I rewatched it when I got home today. To me, the still images make the most powerful argument for people trapped in time and space in a position/place they won't ever really escape. The victim-as-collaborator--that one I'm still examining to see what flicked that up in me so strongly. I do think it's canon interpretation that's helping with that, since the three objects need *so much*, but also--hmm. I need to think how to phrase it, but I can't get away from the idea that none of the three, acting as objects, are all that unhappy with being the total and exclusionary focus, and the feeling that they *do* work, on some level, to keep that.

[astolat]

Just to say, this is a totally awesome report! And I think your readings are great whether or not they are Right™. *g*

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

oh, you damn postmodernist...of course there is only one reading and that's right and that's MINE!!!! *vbg*

[seperis.livejournal.com]

You make me want to write the story, SPN at least, that supports my interpretation!!!!!

I would kill for centralized discussion of several of the vids that came up. Maybe a scene-by-scene examination, even. *mulls*

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

Well, you're doing a pretty nifty job here :) Maybe I should just post my post in comments here :)

[I might keep the mirror stage stuff out for sensible antitheoretical souls :)]

And yes, I can totally see the predator story and the mutual victim story and the Sam as predator one...in fact, I've read them all :)

[seperis.livejournal.com]

*sighs* I need to read more in the fandom soon. I haven't in a while, which has disconnected me from discussion and current meta thought, which is, I think, a liability.

[astolat]

:pptbbbt

*gathers huge shiny pile of readings and swaps them out based on mood!*

[seperis.livejournal.com]

With vids, it's a completely different experience than with text, at least for me. Vids allow such an array of interpretation with the use of visual canon that even discussions I don't necessarily agree with are still supported by multiple interpretation. There's so much brought to the table metatextually by everyone, not even including the vidder's intention, that it's like an endless party.

And thanks. *G*

Flippancy I am thy bitch

[mad-jaks.livejournal.com]

"It's mauve and dangerous..."

*apologises*

So much to read - so little time

Re: Flippancy I am thy bitch

[seperis.livejournal.com]

*grins* It's transformative and dangerous.

Re: Flippancy I am thy bitch

[mad-jaks.livejournal.com]

If you'd decided to wear any other colour but purple... *g*

[kassrachel.livejournal.com]

Oooh, shiny con report; thank you!

And dammit, at least a dozen times this weekend I went, "oh, hey, there's seperis, I should go introduce myself in person," and then the hey, shiny, look over here impulse kicked in and I missed my window(s). So. Yeah. I'm a dork. *g*

[seperis.livejournal.com]

GOD I KNOW. I even walked by you at the door, thought, oh, kassrachel, let me grab Madelyn and then come back and....yeah. That worked. I blame karaoke.

[jehnt.livejournal.com]

hmmm, hopping over from musesfool's journal...

The point she made was that color is a hardwire in us to expect certain things

You know, I've always wondered if certain fan reactions to things in shows that aren't necessarily what the showmakers intended are helped by unconscious coding like this. I actually think this ties in a bit to the incest discussion, because there are some incest ships I feel are coded more "romantically" than regular ones on the shows, and often I think it may be unintentional on the part of the showmakers -- like maybe they're just striving for pretty colors, not striving to throw Peter and Claire from Heroes in scene after scene in which everything screams ROMANTIC INTEREST! yet putting Peter and whatsherface (that girl from season 2) in all these cold, dead looking scenes, which pretty much ensured that I felt nothing for them together.

there's a high possibility that the very thing that makes them need protection also leads them to make absolutely sure they have someone that will be both protector, outside focus, and someone that, despite what they are/do/will be, will never ever leave them. In other words, the obsession not only goes both ways, but that it's constructed specifically by both parties to create a tight space of unconditional acceptance.

This is an interesting read that jives with how I see the various relationships you mentioned. Not, actually, Nathan and Peter, because I've never gotten incesty or even claustrophobic-relationship vibes from them, but with the others. I'm very interested in seeing this vid and can't wait until it's posted. I think it's also pretty interesting that I came across this discussion TODAY because I had just posted about incest in SPN and was wanting to see some meta on it... and LO, THE INTERNET DELIVERED.

(Also, uh, dumb question, but since I haven't followed Smallville since the first season... there's incest in Smallville/SV fandom? Who and who? I can't think even of any families other than the Kents and Luthors.)

[seperis.livejournal.com]

The color thing is really sticking; I catch myself watching shows to see if I can read the coding by the lighting. It's pretty interesting.

Smallville--well, there's some Lionel/Lex, which isn't rare but isn't really what anyone sane calls a ship either. There's a small amount of Lex/Lucas (Lucas is his half-brother), but same thing. Tiny bits of Clark/Lex/Lucas (like, I remember one, though probably there was more). I have reluctantly witnessed Jonathan/Clark, but of them, the biggest really is the Lionel/Lex and it almost exclusively plays to trauma. There used to be a Luthorcest archive, but that went away, but SSA I think lists Lionel/Lex as a pairing in there.

[jehnt.livejournal.com]

Ever since I realized about the color coding, I've done the same thing as well. It's especially interesting in movies/tv based off comic books, which have their own stringent color schemes that are often different from what's usually seen in film and which are usually carried over to some extent into the new medium (Smallville is good at this, as was Constantine, and iirc those are also the two best examples for framing shots in comic-book type ways... though, again, I haven't seen much Smallville since the first season aired.)

And huh. I can kind of see Lionel/Lex, if only because all fandoms seem to have incest ships with the bad guys, but Jonathan/Clark = NOOOOOOOoooooOOOOO.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Lionel/Lex was that eww-God-stop-canonical-inappropriate-touching reactions. It was, and still is, one of the few times I picked up potential canonical child molestation with their relationship. Just. Ewww.

...Jonathan/Clark just scared me. Like, in ways that I try to block out very thoroughly a lot.

[charlie-d-blue.livejournal.com]

Hey, just jumping on over here, and couldn't resist adding my two cents to this really fascinating conversation.. (Something which lends itself to the question of just why do we find the whole concept of incest to be so interesting? Is it because it becomes a microcosm, an allegory of all general human emotional fuckery boiled down into a single relationship that is so much closer/open than any generally normal ones?)

Anyway...


Sex in these terms is the least of the problem--they could do it in every bed in the country--it becomes why do we need any lines between us? Aka--you live for me, you die for me, you protect me and feed me and make yourself into a world for me, and when I ask a question, you make yourself my answer. So at that point, sex is almost superfluous--the question isn't should we but why not?


The thing about all three relationships (and I haven't actually seen the vid, I'm just extrapolating here) is that, as I think has been mentioned, they come from very abnormal, insular origins.


Simon and River are both canonically exceptionally brilliant, and that in itself can be an incredibly isolating factor in any society, be it Earth, super-hero Earth or Future-Whedon-Verse.


They also, as do the Petrellis, come from a very exclusive, higher class background, which becomes yet another stratifying element. Coming from the upper classes also has connotations of the historical tropes of blue-blood, aristocratic incest, which brings with it the almost subconscious assumption that being so exclusive justifies and rationalizes the 'social aberration' of incest within the minds of the enactors.


With Sam and Dean, the circle comes back around to overlapping in the sense of intelligence. While Dean is not (I don't think) empirically proved to be just as scarily smart as Sam is with his free ride to Stanford, from what I see, it's a good assumption that he has shown the same capacity for that kind of quick-silver, instinctual intelligence. Add that to their background, which, while not high class, does engender a sense of the superior, both physically and morally because, hell, they grew up knowing about things that nobody else did, saving people's lives, and are, on top of that, also physically superior in many ways.


The lack of balancing webs of support networks, which temper less socially acceptable behaviour, and obsessive, over-dependant relationships, through sheer force of exposing the person to emotional condemnation and judgement, if nothing else, is also key in those kind of developmental, founding years.


And ... Gah. I'm writing circles around myself now, but my basic point is that in all three relationships, the Winchester and Petrelli brothers, the Tam siblings, they come from backgrounds wherein they are special, somehow superior to the 'masses', and that innate sense of superiority, be it intellectual, social, moral, physical, political, etc. coupled with the isolation and resentment of the other that those kind of situations engender, all lend themselves to an easier rationalization and acceptance of defying societal norms, of rebelling against the 'arbitrary' familial boundaries, because hell, they're smarter, richer, tougher and better looking than you.



er ... /pseudo-intellectual ramble.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

I hadn't considered the specialness aspect being a reason before. Now *that* is interesting to consider--that the specialness puts them above the common morality/etc.

*fascinated* I love the way you think.

[kuwdora.livejournal.com]

*waves a glowstick at you*

[seperis.livejournal.com]

The sad part is, that counts as a distinct jump in my sex life. I don't even know how to deal with that. *sad*