i'm avoiding my actual work

A few days ago, whilst reading poisontaster's meta, Why Is There Not More Shunning, I hit a comment that I'm still thinking about. And not even due to Care Bear trauma for distraction.

vee_fic wrote here (partial quote):

On the other hand, I tend to agree with cryptoxin describing the JournalFen cluster of comms as the "rogue judiciary" -- especially now that UnfunnyBusiness is up. You show up on F_W, it's because you acted wanky; you may know what is silly behavior by what shows up on F_W. You show up on UFB, it's because you acted in a way that makes rage; you may know the borders of fandom's anger by reading that comm. The existence of the two places -- and the distinction between them -- are educations in the (changing) parameters of acceptable behavior within fandom.

One, I'd like to find the post that cryptoxin discusses this in, because wow, that is kind of the nutshell of what I haven't been able to articulate.

I kinda agree. I know Unfunny Business isn't one of the direct wank offspring as stated: more the unacknowledged bastard hate child of OTF by way of Deep Thoughts during a drunken one night stand, but it *does* have the same feeling. In retrospect, I'm also surprised it didn't pop up a lot sooner; the borderlands between snark at pretentious and anger at stupidity can be narrow and crossed easily most of the time, and I think a lot of people go both ways when we get hit with something and we'd like to indulge both. Miss Scribe (bad_penny comm) was funny as hell, but it was also, for those intimately involved, hideously painful either in present or in the past.

Examples: OSBP was enraging and also hilarious by turns depending on what time of day it was, because you couldn't help staring at the arguments and wondering if some of them really were aware what they were saying*. The SPN stealth-comm takeover arrangements leading back to a history of comm-coups in SPN. SVA Vs JKR in all it's weird glory.

Usually, I can get the general tenor how fandom is thinking if I hit Fandom Wank, UFB, Wank Report, and MetaFandom by turns and not just on the fandom-eating issues. Sure, every once in a while, like OSBP, something hits us out of nowhere, but also, I'm not really sure it does. I'd bet money if you traced metafandom over six months, you could work out a fairly good predictive model for blow up probability. Whether it goes all-fandom wide or not is trickier**.

It becomes trickier when I think of dogpile versus shun and why we wince when we see it or do it, and I'm not entirely sure it's Cult of the Nice or Geek Fallacy or even World of Women that's the base theory behind it. I think it's the same reason Miss Scribe lasted so long, why some fanpeople can get away with a *lot* of shitty behavior, and why most of us won't and don't even consider doing a reveal of someone we know who screwed us over outside filter and likely do it only over AIM to loyal parties only. Sometimes, I think no one wants to start a war and find it turned on them. It's a lot safer to wait for critical mass to get hit and have a comm pick it up.

Pretty sure I had a point here. When you find it, that is totally what this entry was about. Not rambling at all.


* - for the rest of my life, I will never understand how the OP could talk about the shy, insecure women who tentatively asked for breast-enpowerment through groping and not realize how fucking creepy that was. I don't think any phrase ever skeeved me as badly as that one in how it was both worded and that it existed at all. And there is no way that could have been worded by anyone that it wouldn't have set off every alarm I have installed, both pre-installed and society-created models.

** - I've often wondered if the explosion in OSBP is related to the Mary Jane debacle that some of us walked out of feeling vaguely shell-shocked and nauseated by turns. At least for me, seeing the same reworded statement in defense of the former that were posted in the latter under anonymous (and those charming flames, fun) was enlightening. I don't often go from zero to DIAF that fast.

Comments

[amireal.livejournal.com]

Oh I agree, what I meant was, you know, own your fear. Admit that you wouldn't like it to happen to you without prescibing possibly dangerous hmm motivations? Patterns? to everyone else. Almost pre-shaming people into line? Don't object, don't talk about it too much. Because what if it's me? Only they're not really saying "what if it's me?" they're saying "It's kind of mean".

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Well. *frowns* Yes and how do you admit that? Even to yourself? Some people don't. And some people do in teh fact they're stating this is mean. Reading through some of teh anti-shun/anti-pile, I recognize the language on many, and that is what they are saying. For some, it's a terrifying thing to unleash as a social restraint, because it can't be guaranteed to only be used in really bad situations.

Again, I agree with dogpiling, but trust me, few of those anti-posts were really that far away from "but what if it's me," and at least emotionally, I was totally feeling that same sense of dread.

[amireal.livejournal.com]

Well my kneejerk reaction is to be an adult? Which isn't fair I know (or necessarily true). I'm not saying they necessarily can realize it on their own. But it is the dichotomy that's being presented in the posts that bother me. So-- I (and others) will post our own feelings about it will post about it. Thus confirming their fears, but maybe also, not confirming it. You know?

According to their rules, your post could almost be considered unthoughtful if not mean or rude. You're probably okay because there's only been a handful of posts about it, but what if fandom was bored, or it caught more people's attentions and oh no, more than one post a day was made on it. What then?

I'm not saying there's really an answer, but I think that people who dislike dogpiling (and omg this is not the definition of dogpiling, really. Wow.) maybe need to consider that it's not Other People's Problems.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Well my kneejerk reaction is to be an adult?

Since when is fear not adult? I'm continuously boggled by the idea that adulthood == sainthood. No. Fear, even fear without grounds, even fear you *should* overcome is adult.

I'm not saying there's really an answer, but I think that people who dislike dogpiling (and omg this is not the definition of dogpiling, really. Wow.) maybe need to consider that it's not Other People's Problems.

Well. Strictly speaking, they do. They avoid the situations by not speaking and not dogpiling and twitching when it occurs. I mean, it's a knee jerk response. I'm not sure there *is* a way to solve it.

[amireal.livejournal.com]

I didn't mean adulthood == sainthood, mostly, as I said, it was a kneejerk response towards taking responsiblity, for what I'm not sure. *shrug* Yay kneejerk, but I'm totally aware it's kneejerk and NOT the answer.

Well. Strictly speaking, they do. They avoid the situations by not speaking and not dogpiling and twitching when it occurs. I mean, it's a knee jerk response. I'm not sure there *is* a way to solve it.

Can I just say that I really don't understand this strange definition of dogpiling that came up during all of this. It's-- part of the problem for me I think. I'm not sure by avoiding it and proclaiming the behavior Not Nice they're really acknowledging the full extent and vagaries of the situation. There's a heavy it's One or the Other going on and I don't like things that don't allow for gray. I'm also not sure that avoiding the problem is really acknowledging that it's not Other People's Behaviors (solely).

Yeah, I'm not sure there is a solution.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

More than one === dogpile. Well, that's what I got from some people. And I don't think it *can* be avoided, to be honest. It's just--I do see it, even if I don't agree with it. It's teh humiliation squick hitting very, very hard. It is *difficult* when you are have a blank horror of say, having your underwear pulled down in public to see there are times that it is necessary to do so.

[amireal.livejournal.com]

Which is to say, I can't understand how dogpiling = talking about it in your own LJ and NOT say, going to the post in question and piling on comments. To me dogpiling requires a level of direct interaction as opposed to being thinky in your own space, so right there it seems distinctly an odd definition because already you're kind of removed from the subject.

Also, *points up* what ladycat said. I'm looking at this from the POV of outside in, as someone tut tutting the behavior of others as opposed to having the thought being part of the legitimate process of deciding to post. Being worried fandom will turn on you =/= feeling that even talking about it with mild amount of interest (i.e. 2 - 3 posts about it a day for a few days) is somehow impolite at the very least.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Yes. I'm saying, from a person who is terrified of the *idea* of public humiliation, this is like legalizing underwear-pull-down day. It's pretty much terrifying.

[amireal.livejournal.com]

And I get that, but that's not the only thing I'm getting from some of these posts. It's too messy to easily delineate.