seperis | the people are not feeling this anti-plastic bag measure

So you may or may not know that Austin, in keeping with its Greener Than Thou mantra, has discontinued the use of disposable bags, such as those made of plastic and oftentimes found at grocery and convenience stores for the purpose of carrying one's groceries or convenience items.

Being liberal, an Austinite, and environmentally aware, I am very supportive of this measure, but I find that when I now enter a grocery and/or convenience store to get one item and end up with thirty while staring in horror at smug checker, I become surprisingly conservative, and also, pro-landfill like you would not believe. I'm ready to dig some myself, lets put it that way, and hey, the future can suck it.

This is the city of saving a salamander that isn't entirely visible to the naked eye unless presented on colored paper (exaggeration. maybe.), I get that. I'm not actually opposed to gradual reduction of single-use plastic, though I want to point out, they aren't single use--they are mulitple use. Plastic bags are perfect for bathroom trash cans, for quick clean-ups of the house, for school projects, for insta-use lunch bags--I mean, I personally get a lot of wear out of them.

Paper bags? I LOVE SINGLE USE PAPER BAGS. They show you shop at high-end grocery stores while also being (limitedly) environmentally conscious, they work in a jiffie for drawing paper and backing for drawings, they're emergency construction paper and bookcovers, and also, they're hearken to the halcyon days of yore whereas as a child I carried them for my grandmother.

The thing is, this is Austin, and why increment when you can shove it down people's throats all at once? It's annoying, especially since as of March 1st, resuable bags were jacked up by 400% because that helps, really. It's also--SURPRISE!--a problem for those who are poor or on various social services, the elderly, and the disabled, because reusable bags are $4.00 a pop in some places; and they need to be washed but it's new enough to a lot of people--read a lot of fucking people--to wash their bags.

And I say this as someone who comes from a family with reusable bags, including ones especially for frozen food. We do it a lot, just sometimes not when we're only running to the store for juice and realize we need coffee, sugar, and there's a sale on mini-wheats. (When I travel now, I buy my mother reusable grocery bags. My next goal is to get one for her from Trader Joe's, since I forgot the last time I was in a state with a Trader Joe's.)

Actually, I know a lot of countries already have something like this in place and find this weird to consider not knowing, but the thing is, this isn't just a change of reusable to non-reusable--this is trying to create a mindset that allows an overhaul of the entire pre-, during-, and post-grocery shopping experience.

It's buying reusable bags, which is highly expensive right now, but okay, that much we can all do; we can shop, and hey, we can express our individuality by being like everyone else. Pack them in the vehicle, good to go. Take them into your store of choice, got it, you forget you run to get them out of the trunk, annoying, but okay. Bring them home, not so bad. Unpack, sure.

Wash them? This step will be hard to remember. Specialize your bags to decrease the wear and tear on bags that will hold dry goods and non-meat and non-dairy and non-frozen--really? Realize some bags can't be washed or fall apart in three or four washes, yes that was fun.

Get them back to the car--yeah, good luck, no one remembers that, and dude, I hope you don't take the bus or something to the grocery store and leave them on the table.

Better idea: surcharge the goddamn bags for a year or so. Go all paper. Work people into the anti-disposable bag theory knowing that you're working against decades of retail conditioning and making a massive change in behavior. And be aware we all become very, very fucking conservative at eleven at night at the local convenience store and our items number greater than five.

Also? Four dollars a reusable bag? You are fucking with me.

I actually do not know how this is gonna go, possibly because Austin is also weirdly contrary sometimes and Austinites are, on a whole, fans of opposing things for reasons. So while even if the city doesn't back down and the legislature takes some kind of Protect The Plastic Bag measure state-wide, Austinites will immediately--we do this--immediately remember we are a lone island of dark blue sanity in a virulent red state (dude, go with it) and turn anti-plastic bag like it had unprotected missionary sex in the dark with our mothers. Because we are not only Greener Than Thou, we are also Greener In Opposition To Thou, which is how we ended up with special nearly-invisible salamander protection.

Disclaimer: I am generalizing and simplifying the salamander issue (though not by much) and also, making sweeping, sweeping, sweeping generalizations. I also had to carry ten items in my hands from a convenience store today because I forgot the bag issue and left my purse at home and it was not fun.

Heh. At least you guys aren't Italians - the entire time I lived in Italy, the cashier would simply scan the plastic bags needed without waiting for the paper choice or dragging out a reusable bag, unless you were in the fast checkout lanes where people would judge you for not having your bag out.

Supposedly we were "anti-plastic bag" but everyone just took it as sort of a bag tax, LOL.

Dude, a nice bag tax for when I don't have mine? I WOULD NOT MIND.

unless you were in the fast checkout lanes where people would judge you for not having your bag out.

*bites lip hard* That would totally be me.

Yeah, people new to Italy learned pretty quickly that you don't use the 10 items and under line unless you had a reusable bag.

*offers hugs for your new stress*

May I ask where you lived in Italy? Because I'm italian but I've never seen a fast checkout lane in my life LOL It may be due to the fact that I live in small city, IDK, but now I'm curious!

Misterbianco, when we lived in Sicily, and Naples - we always used to shop at Città Mercato and Auchan, supermarket-wise

There was the weirdest row of international store chains down the center of Misterbianco, for some reason.

Oh, that's cool, thank you :)

Auchan is an international chain? (It's one of the places I shopped in Luxembourg)

Yeah, they're originally French.

A while back DC instituted a 5-cent-per-bag tax, with the funds raised going to help clean up local waterways (where plastic bag pollution is a particular problem).

Of course this doesn't reduce bag usage nearly as much as Austin's policy, but it does help -- in the first year, bag usage fell 67% and the tax raised $1.5 million. It also really changed the checkout mindset; before the tax was instituted, it was a hassle to get cashiers to deal with my reusable bags. (I got into an argument with one clerk -- at the crunchy organic grocery, of all places -- who wanted to bag each milk carton separately.)

It also means that when I forget to bring my reusable bags -- or when we run out of plastic bags to dispose of used cat litter -- there are bags available.

I would approve very much of the surcharge thing so much. This really really really should have been eased into, because gradual? Works better and is less stressful by far.

USED CAT LITTER! Another plastic bag use!

I hear you on the difficulty with an all-or-nothing measure. The liberal, ecology-conscious mind is aware that re-usable bags are better all around for groceries and other uses. However, plastic was invented for a reason and there are things better disposed of in flexible, waterproof, easy use containers.

Fortunately, the town here pushes cloth grocery bags and has a number of environmental slogans plastered on buses and whatnot. It is, socially, *cool* to use the tote bag, and also easier to handle canned goods that way. But the town also provides free small plastic bags in the parks, tastefully paw-printed and sized for picking up dog turds. That's about as single-use as you can get, and rightly so. This approach might even discourage using plastic for groceries -- if plastic is for dog poo, do you want it near your apples and toothpaste?

I do think the habit will eventually form and social pressure will do its job, but seriously, all-or-nothing is difficult to work with because in addition to all the other problems, it's putting people's backs up hugely. It's forcing what, with a little work, people will eventually start doing if given fur glove motivation. This is not a civil rights issue here; we can take the soft approach and work it into the public without trauma.

Especially since most people I've talked to--this is a discussion topic everywhere--save and reuse their disposable plastic bags at home. I don't get not keeping recycled paper either--even with a surcharge, those are super-useful for some of the same reasons. That's actually a kind of secondary problem; we kind of depend on having a supply of these kinds of bags on hand and it's gonna be annoying to try and find replacements.

My town has had no plastic bags for a decade now, and people did get used to it. We have a surcharge for a paper bag, reusable bags for $2 (more for a cool bag) and the supermarket has free already-used cardboard boxes. But when we did the changeover, it was The Apocalypse! Tourists will desert us! Old ladies will die in their homes of food poisoning! But because there were cheap options (and no 400% rise in price for the reusable bags wtf) everything was fine.

See, surcharging plastic ones makes sense to me, and it would encourage reusable bags without literally leaving people bagless if they didn't want to invest in reusable bags at teh checkout counter.

when we were in australia, canberra had banned plastic bags, but reusable bags weren't $4!

we use reusables most of the time, but if plastic bags at grocery etc stores ever totally go away, we're going to be buying them -- what else do you use for the bathroom trash? what else do you scoop the cat litter into? (well, ok, the litter goes into the litter locker upstairs, but the litter locker uses ... wait for it ... plastic bags.)

I use reusable bags, UNTIL I RUN OUT OF PLASTIC BAGS b/c no one makes a garbage bag smaller than 13 gallons or larger than 1 gallon, which is the fucking size of most garbage cans. Especially if you live in a NYC apartment building with a tiny garbage chute. (God is that spelled wrong, but spellcheck fails me). Then I specifically do a big shopping and don't take my reusable bags.

Correction: Simple human makes a useful size but in order for it to be cost effective I'd have to buy in bulk. And something in me just refuses to spend $65 on trash bags at once.

we use reusables most of the time, but if plastic bags at grocery etc stores ever totally go away, we're going to be buying them -- what else do you use for the bathroom trash? what else do you scoop the cat litter into? (well, ok, the litter goes into the litter locker upstairs, but the litter locker uses ... wait for it ... plastic bags.)

So much this.

I'm really surprised that your reuseables are so pricy! One thing I noticed in the DC area when they started pushing the bag tax was that all of the sudden a lot of the local stores had reuseables available and for really reasonable prices. They weren't particularly high quality, but they were under a dollar. Perhaps it was because it was a bag tax instead of an outright ban. The stores know they have you over a barrel. :/

I've found reusables can sometimes depend on where you're buying and what type of bag it is. Target sells really amazing canvas bags that are 10 bucks a pop, but they also have the cheap 1.99 bags which take about 18 months of heavy abuse before caput-ing.

It also depends on the state, weirdly, Kentucky was easier to get bags (all the stores had great deals, like 1 bag per $50 of groceries or something) than in NYC which appears weirdly stingy.

They aren't that much in all places, but we're also running out of bags in some grocery stores, or the cheaper options are out and the more expensive are the only available.

Yeah, San Francisco has also fallen in line with banning plastic and charge 10 cents per paper bag. But most reuseable bags aren't $4 unless you're buying the really nice canvas totes or something like that (and even then I went in to my usual corner market with a canvas tote and the woman was flabbergasted at the size of my bag because people in my hood did not shop like they were in a supermarket, heh). But an interesting thing that's been observed in SF, elsewhere in California and Seattle (as I gleam from Google), is the uptick in e. coli poisionings in the cities that have banned the plastic bags. Because people aren't accustomed to bagging their items separately and appropriately away from their meat and whatnot or washing their canvas bags because bacteria can collect in there!!

Here are some links if people want more details!

Norovirus spread in reuseable grocery bag, Oregon

The study is from the University of Pennsylvania where it tracked in SF specifically the uptick in infections and food-borne related deaths.

An Austin blogger is asking the same question about whether or not the bag ban will make people sick.

So, protip everyone: WASH YOUR REUSABLE BAGS. Here's some information on how to clean/keep your meat separate:

Cloth reusable bags should be washed in a washing machine using laundry detergent and dried in the dryer or air-dried. But plastic-lined and should be scrubbed with hot water and air-dried. Make sure your meat is in a separate plastic bag and away from your fresh food and other ready-to-eat items. (Food Safety)

Laundry's About.com page has some more details on how to launder depending on the materials. They also suggest to use different bags and label them as only meat, dairy, veg. and get into the habit of only using those bags for those items. (How To Keep Reuseable Grocery Bags Clean and Safe)

Stay safe AND green! ♥

edited at: (fixing html and adding random notes) Date: 2013-03-07 04:44 am (UTC)

The washing thing is gonna take time to get into people's heads; it's just not something anyone thinks about, or which ones are washable or how.

Also, thanks for the links!

edited at: Date: 2013-03-07 05:50 am (UTC)

We don't even have a bag ban (yet, they're talking about it) and local stores are charging $5 for a reuseable bag. The problem is the print all looks the same with their logo on those. Trying to distinguish the meat bag from the others is also about educating the bagging at the checkout line, they want to shove everything together. Trying to forestall that disease-spreading problem by bagging the leaky meat in a plastic bag at the meat counter kinda defeats the purpose, right? (Going vegetarian doesn't entirely help the budget woes, but it can help.) And of course if they intend to reduce things like food contamination, making sure their meat wrapping doesn't leak would help too.

*winces* Meats and soups and dairy are going to be a problem, especially with cross-contamination if you have a limited number of bags and vegetables end up with the meat somehow.

Seperis, there's a Trader Joe's down here now....

See, I had no idea it had gotten to Texas!

I wondered if you would blog about this, since you're the only other Austinite I know of on my reading list! It may interest you to know that 1) HEB has not raised their prices for reusable bags, and have in fact added a plastic reusable bag option for a quarter per bag, and 2) there is an emergency fee that HEB (and so far only HEB) has applied for and received where for a $1 per order surcharge, you can have your items bagged in either paper or plastic, because they understand that many people weren't prepared for the ordinance and that government assistance doesn't cover the cost of reusable bags. (The $1 surcharge doesn't even go back to HEB; it goes toward buying more reusable plastic bags so that they can be given away.)

Disclaimer: I work at HEB, and this is my first day off since the ban went into effect. When a customer is rude to me about the ban I am GLEEFULLY SMUG to tell them that the ban affects all retailers and some restaurants in the city limits, and that the surcharge option is going away on Feb. 28, 2014, so they had better get used to the ban or get used to wasting gas driving outside the city limits for all of their shopping. (Seriously, some asshole told me that the bag ban was taking away his freedom and was turning America into Afghanistan, and I had to just smile and nod while hoping he had a car accident on the way home.)

Also, the city's requirements for "what makes a bag multiple use rather than single use" are kind of absurd, and piss the largest number of customers off when I tell them that unfortunately, the paper bags at HEB aren't considered reusable because they are too small and don't have handles. For that alone, I would like to smack every member of the city council, since that has produced probably a 500+% increase in the number of customers who treat me like shit at the register.

there is an emergency fee that HEB (and so far only HEB) has applied for and received where for a $1 per order surcharge, you can have your items bagged in either paper or plastic, because they understand that many people weren't prepared for the ordinance and that government assistance doesn't cover the cost of reusable bag

I wonder why our local HEB didn't offer that option?

Two possible reasons, really: 1) the checker didn't know it was an option, because they had been poorly trained and educated about it, or 2) their managers (like my managers) have discouraged them from mentioning it; I'm not supposed to tell a customer about the emergency fee unless they ask me specifically about it, because the city doesn't want us to use the emergency option.

My family has been shopping at the same place for about 8/9 years (what can I say, we're creatures of habit) but as long as I remember we've always used reusable bags.

IDK, personally I think it's not a good choice to use plastic bags, but a few years ago, when someone from the Gov decided to ban them, there were lots of unhappy people. Paper bags cost about .10€ (same as plastic bags), reusable bags range from 1€ to 3€ and, as you pointed out, you can use them for years.

I love my one-use grocery bags. They're so ridic convenient. I shall miss them.

You... wash your reusable bags?

I guess we do, but only a couple times a year. They really don't get all that grubby. The one that I always keep in my backpack, um, has never been washed. But I swear it's clean! I stop off at the shop 3-4 times a week as I cycle home from work, to pick up milk and bread and stuff, and it's handy to have a bag at the ready.

My supermarket has a "take a bag" corner after the checkout lane, where you can drop off any paper/plastic/reusable bags that you have lying around the house, and anyone can take what they need from there. It works really well, because bags tend to pile up in my house.

I think the washing thing is mostly due to raw meats and non-sealed lunchmeats and dairies? Which actually could end up being a serious problem for those who buy meat and don't watch for cross-contamination.

My supermarket has a "take a bag" corner after the checkout lane, where you can drop off any paper/plastic/reusable bags that you have lying around the house, and anyone can take what they need from there. It works really well, because bags tend to pile up in my house.

I am evaluating bags on Amazon now! It is, admittedly, kind of exciting to shop for shopping bags.

I admit to also being confused by the idea of washing your reusable bags. I get that leaky meat would be an issue, but I am genuinely curious about how they sell meat where you are. I would find it very difficult to find meat in a store that wasn't already wrapped in plastic, and lots of grocery stores have plastic bags like the ones you get for produce situated next to the meat as well in case something seems leaky. I'm not saying I've never had spills, but I certainly don't bother to wash my reusable bags regularly.

I get that leaky meat would be an issue, but I am genuinely curious about how they sell meat where you are. I would find it very difficult to find meat in a store that wasn't already wrapped in plastic, and lots of grocery stores have plastic bags like the ones you get for produce situated next to the meat as well in case something seems leaky.

At my local grocery, there are no extra plastic bags for meat, depressingly. And yeah, leakage can be a problem with red meat. It doesn't happen constantly, but it happens enough that now it's worrisome when combined with non-disposable paper bags.

At Central Market, your meat can be paper-wrapped, not plastic, but I haven't been tehre since the ban went into effect and they may still have paper bags available.

Huh, thanks. That's interesting. I don't think I'd be able to buy paper wrapped meat anywhere in Toronto, except maybe from the very fanciest of butcher shops (which is not where I get to shop. :P)

The city's ban doesn't affect the plastic produce bags or the plastic bags in the raw meat section because that's a major food safety concern. Any meat that has only been saran wrapped rather than vacuum sealed has an increased chance of leaking raw meat juice into your bag or onto your hands. At my local grocery, we even installed more plastic bag stations in the market department, because so many of our customers were having us separate their meat into separate junior-sized grocery bags at checkout and they wouldn't have that option come March 1. I don't know where you shop, though, so the managers may have made a different decision with what to do with their budgets.

(sorry to threadjack, but since I have insider info I thought I'd share)

Washing reusable bags - I mean, ok, I throw my cloth bags in the washing machine once in a while (usually when I wash my kitchen towels), but that's more like a "machine's running anyway, there's still space, what else could I throw in" thing.
But they usually put meat and such in little plastic bags here anyway when you buy them, so it shouldn't be a problem.

It's also--SURPRISE!--a problem for those who are poor or on various social services, the elderly, and the disabled, because reusable bags are $4.00 a pop in some places; and they need to be washed but it's new enough to a lot of people--read a lot of fucking people--to wash their bags.

Additional reasons why they're a problem for that list of people? Less likely to have cars, therefore less likely to be able to just keep a stack of re-usable bags on hand, therefore an additional checkbox in the "have to plan ahead to go shopping" column. Also, re-usable bags are usually sturdier than disposables, which means clerks are trained to put more in each bag, which makes them harder to carry.

This isn't an issue for me without a car, because I just re-distribute them myself for small shops and get big shops delivered. But when I used to borrow a car for grocery shopping, the clerks would never understand that I couldn't carry a single packed-full bag up from the car, never mind repeating it multiple times, but finding a spot to redistrubute the bags was impossible and leaning over to do it in the cart was too painful. (I'm really careful about weight-limits these days, so I'm more likely to take 3 light trips than 1 heavy trip.)

Another reason why paper bags are awesome? You carry them at waist-level instead of knee level, which can be an easier weight-distribution for those of us who have certain mobility/strength restrictions. I don't use them a lot, but I have a few, and at their end-life they're also really convenient for taking out the (apartment-dwelling) recycling so that I can leave the bag with the rest of the recyclables.

And I too find it thoughtless that they outlaw grocery store bags and then encourage people to buy similar-sized trash bags.

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