seperis | torchwood 2.11

Glee and some vague annoyances.

ETA: I'm very pro-Gwen in general. I feel I should warn for this.

God I love this show, and it reminds me why I love Gwen so much. I never meta this show, as it is my romp and by God, I refuse to think deeper than pretty.

But I hit glee (missing people!) and frustration at the same time. Hard.

Torchwood Boys, an Open Letter:

Rhys - I don't even know how to deal with you in this episode. Leave your work problems at work? Are you kidding? I get your frustration, and you started off fantastically and brought home a lot of issues I really think need to be dealt with and then, instead of stopping--really, should have stopped--leave your work problems at work? Please, Rhys, tell us more about how relationships work? I thought they were partnerships! I thought the whole thing with keeping the memories was to share her work. I thought a marriage was sharing a life.

Why Rhys? Why did you go there? Why? Stop one sentence earlier.

*thoughtful* At first, I blamed a lot of their problems on Gwen and her work and her feelings for Jack, but the more I watch Rhys, the less sure I am that's the case. I need to think about this more, because I was startled how much I disliked him here and I need to go back and rewatch and reapportion again.

Jack - I know this is hard and will shorten the plot, but try this. I bet anything that an explanation and tour? Could have done the trick. Yes, life is hard that way. There are secrets you are perfectly entitled to keep and there are a lot of them. This wasn't one of them. There was literally no reason not to tell her. I mean, I cannot think of a single good reason. I can't even think of a bad reason other than pure habit.

Also, stop being an ass. Yes, I know, it's shocking when someone doesn't instantly obey. You know, with people vanishing and your less than any kind of explanation and mysteriously showing up when it happens and all. I can totally see why it would shock you anyone would wonder!

Ianto - You're perfect. That is all.

Writers - do the words "amnesia pills" mean anything to you? As you trot those out, why in the name of God you didn't give some to Gwen for the mother is unreal.

Plot:

I think this one hit close, what with Child and etcetera.

That was amazing and terrifying without even like, anything terrifying happening. Tosh and Gwen working together was fantastic. Gwen's focus was fantastic. The slow realization of how many people was fantastic. It was beautifully done, from the meeting to the Room of Missingness.

I liked the fact after Jack shut down Gwen's investigation, Ianto didn't like it. Mostly because Ianto's so quiet, it's so easy to assume he goes along with Jack, when actually, he really doesn't. He just, you know, rebels differently. Gwen yells the house down; Ianto is stealth-ninja rebel. He'd be a very good rebel spy. Like, a freaking amazing rebel spy actually.

Really. Make him spy on something now. He'd be like, tea? And stealing secrets. In front of people. It's awesome.

I love that people are being taken by the Rift, because yes, that's logical. And they come back not quite right. Also excellent.

I have to agree with Gwen though--I'd want to know. That's my kid. A year, ten years, twenty years, it stops being hope and starts being obsession and--I don't think that heals. There has to be a point where you move on. That the woman took out her anger on Gwen? Understandable. But I don't think the episode was right in this one; sometimes ignorance is bliss, yes. But in this, with a child, a husband, a wife, family, close friends--knowing can be good.

And if it is not this is Torchwood. Amnesia pills! Argh. That annoyed me unduly.

Things I Wish For:

1.) At minute three in the twenty hour scream, give the guy a sedative. Seriously. I'm also vaguely surprised that the nurse didn't bring that up before. You know, when Gwen was around the first time, or when they called to say they were bringing his mother.
2.) Amnesia pills. No, really. Why on earth not? If it's just for the joy of Gwen guilt, wow. That's just annoying. There are so many ways to make it genuine. You do not have to abandon a logical plot point to do it. Really.

I need a Gwen icon. *thoughtful*

He'd be a very good rebel spy. Like, a freaking amazing rebel spy actually. ... He'd be like, tea? And stealing secrets. In front of people. It's awesome.

... And now all I can think about is a Whoniverse/Pan's Labyrinth fusion with Ianto in the part of Mercedes. How cool would that be?

I was thinking of WWII while I wrote it. *grins* Though not that. THough now I am.

*wide eyes* That would be *deeply awesome*.

May I suggest the Master as Capitan Vidal? And Owen would be very interesting as the rebel-friendly doctor. I'm stumped about Ofelia, though. Is there anyone in Torchwood or Doctor Who who's that innocent?

Maybe Rose? I think that's as close as we can get.

Hmm. But then there's the whole issue of the mother. Plus, with all the grit and determination Ofelia has, maybe Martha would be a closer fit? ... I'm really overthinking this, aren't I?

Ianto has the best lines and the best (most consistent) characterisation throughout Torchwood (and I haven't even seen 2x11 yet...)

I seriously love Ianto, and I didn't think I would. The consistency could be the reason for that, too.

Both Ianto and Gwen deal with Jack in different ways, and he with them.

*nods* He does. I love he knew instantly how Gwen figured it out.

Yes, and then he dealt with it.

He and Ianto discuss things, and shag in the office. :) That is, when they're not out hunting Weevils together.

edited at: Date: 2008-03-20 09:02 am (UTC)

They please me with their office sex. *happy*

It was great. Jack was so very casual about it, and Ianto tried to look presentable while he found out what Gwen needed. I love that.

Ianto half-dressed is a joy forever.

Still nothing. Displeased.

Hope springs eternal.

Haven't seen the ep yet, but although I'm a Tosh girl, I too like Gwen, and fandom ain't treating her kindly. So, before I head out for Study Session Day:

Your awesome is an amazing awesome.

Thank you!

Heh. It's kinda simple an icon, although from a high-quality shot--I won't hate you if you look for other Gwen icons. (Well, not MUCH.)

*anime eyes*

You know you're the only one for me.

::little ♥ ♥ ♥ go ping above her head::

You know - with the Rhys thing? It bothered me too when he said about leaving work at work - but I think he was still smarting from Gwen saying, no, no kids, no babies EVER! I think it was his version of lashing out about that, and I think he redeemed himself totally in the last minute when Gwen tries to make it all about him and he sits her down and lets her cry all over his chest, and explain... (Finally! :)

*nods* I was fine up until that line, because his frustration was so obvious with the situation. That one just kind of made me pretty much want to slap him silly.

There was literally no reason not to tell her

I did wonder, on rewatching the team meeting scene, if her attitude just pissed Jack off. I got the feeling he had been through this himself already - the 2 in the basement, maybe tried to *do* something for them, it went badly so started the island thing. So when Gwen is all "we have a duty, have some compassion" Jack just thinks "screw it, let her learn the hard way" Which isn't great either but I could sympathise.

Huh. I didn't see anything wrong with her attitude other than determination to find out what was happening. *shrug* YMMV. If Jack refused to explain because he was sulking--I really can't understand that. In Gwen's shoes, I'd have been a lot angrier that he didn't just tell them right off what was going on with that.

Ah, may well just be me then.

Whatever way, even if Jack wanted Gwen to learn a lesson from this (and I would prefer that lesson to be "sometimes there is nothing we can do" as opposed to "I am always right" but, yeah) it came at the expense of Nikki and Jonah.

I am still bewildered why the amnesia pills weren't brought out. I mean, basically made for this situation.

But for which bit? They would have to retcon Nikki of all memories of Jonah OR if they just take away the memory of finding him she is left with the obsession. How far do they watch her to see what is the "better" outcome?

(damnit, I should stop picking, TW is not a show made for *picking* it is made for glee)

That's the thing. The show was inconsistent to make a point. If Gwen's actions were "wrong", then the pills retcon it out in proof--better obsession that knowing. If they were right, then there's no reason anyone else's family wasn't informed, because it's better to know than live forever unsure.

Instead, it's just Gwen is wrong, let her suffer guilt, which is--okay, I don't necessarily agree with the philosophy, but then why the woman was supposed to suffer for that when she literally didn't have to remains a mystery.

Bloody Torchwood indeed, *g*

I'm also leery on not better to know too. That *does* bother me, because while it may or may not be true in this instance (and I'm not convinced it is true in this instance)--I don't know that's universally true or universally right in a situation like this.

On Rhys-- I completely agreed with him. Gwen has a way of condescending to him and acting as if his 9 to 5 life and concerns are beneath her. That's bullshit, and he called her on it.

Of course, he wants to hear about her work and anything that interests her or bothers her, but at that moment, Gwen needed to shut her mouth and listen to *him,* something she hadn't done all week.

Rhys loves Gwen a great deal, which we know, because he has accepted situatuions that would have had me running for the hills, but he has to make sure that their lives *together* are as important her her as her work.

Yeah, I've never seen that in their relationship, so definitely agree to disagree.

With that whole business about retconning the wedding party, *not* doing it here was just...wrong.

Yes! That's why it felt so ridiculous. Pill, bottle of water, done! Just, wow.

I agree with you completely on the Rhys thing, but on the other hand I also have a lot of sympathy for him. They definitely implied that this is an explosion that's been building for a couple of weeks between them, and the things she said to set him off were pretty unbelievable. So I don't blame him for reacting that violently, and you could tell that she didn't, either, because she was trying to backtrack and explain, and her opening choice of words ("it's just this case at work-") could not have been better designed to set him off further. I know how he feels, when you've been building and building towards that kind of rant, and it's just *so hard* to stop even when you know that you're probably going a little too far. And I think he realized that in the end, when he takes one look at her Stepford Wife impression and the way she was literally breaking apart trying to hold onto it, and he gave her a hug and asked her to talk about work.

I really wanted to smack Rhys at the end of his little rant, in fact I looked at the screen and said, "Okay, you just lost my sympathy," out loud, but that scene at the end worked it out for me. It felt like they'd, if not necessarily come to an accord about the underlying issues, then at least forgiven each other for what was said.

I can't help but agree with Gwen, though. You can have either babies or you can have Torchwood, you can't have both. And I think eventually she's going to be forced to choose one or the other. Poor Gwen.

As to the rest of the plot... Also agree. Though mostly with a big side of, "WTF Jack?" I can't help but wonder if the whole ringamarole wasn't some obscure lesson and maybe later it was just punishment for not understanding quickly enough, or for challenging his judgment and his command. (I bet he came by later and retconned Niki. But he wouldn't bother to tell Gwen he did it.) Jack's so used to being in command, he still doesn't understand the effects of Gwen leading the team for months while he was gone.

I bet she was better at it, too. I keep feeling like they're trying to make Jack this incredibly human figure, like he's learned how to love and care and feel pain so much more deeply than he had before the immortality thing, but for me they're totally missing the mark. He feels cold, and hard, and kind of heartless at times, actually. He was more human to me in the last episode of season one of Doctor Who than he's ever been on Torchwood, no matter how much he cares about his team. Maybe in a million years when he's the Face of Bo, he'll have finally reached that kind of soul-deep wisdom and universal love, but the way he is now he's just bowing under the weight of too many years, and it's... not pleasant for me to look at.

That is *why* they need Gwen. That's why she was brought on in the first place. She's the human character, Jack, the way he is now, barely comes close.

Uh. That got a little long, sorry. But you pretty much articulated most of the things that felt wrong for me during this episode.

Oh yeah, with Rhys, it was definitely building and I was totally with him--then was like GOD REWIND REWIND REWIND NOW STOP MUST NOT STRANGLE.

I can't help but agree with Gwen, though. You can have either babies or you can have Torchwood, you can't have both. And I think eventually she's going to be forced to choose one or the other. Poor Gwen.

I had a bad feeling about that bit, too. Really bad. Indescribably bad.

As to the rest of the plot... Also agree. Though mostly with a big side of, "WTF Jack?" I can't help but wonder if the whole ringamarole wasn't some obscure lesson and maybe later it was just punishment for not understanding quickly enough, or for challenging his judgment and his command. (I bet he came by later and retconned Niki. But he wouldn't bother to tell Gwen he did it.) Jack's so used to being in command, he still doesn't understand the effects of Gwen leading the team for months while he was gone.

*nod* Yes, exactly. I really expected something, you know, universe ending for Jack to act so freaky about it, but this was not so much that And also, considering his penchant to vanish for months, probably something he should have all of Torchwood know about so as to make sure it continues. There just wasn't a good reason for Jack to hide it other than just because he could. And in this case, it wasn't a personal or political secret; it was a part of Torchwood itself. So--yeah. Exactly.

it wasn't a personal or political secret; it was a part of Torchwood itself.

But isn't that also a question? Is it a part of Torchwood? Or is Jack trying to fly under the radar there and skimming funds to do it? When he came in he said there were two and they were stuck in the basement. Now if Torchwood was footing the bill etc. I bet they'd be holed up in some remote country house with a full staff. But no, he has them in abandoned bunkers with what looks like short (but caring) staff. Also he didn't keep it totally to himself, Ianto certainly knew about it and it looked to me that Owen also knew about it.

It didn't look to me like Owen knew about it (he just looked like he really didn't care)--but if he did, I'd be kinda freaked out this seemed to be something that was deliberately excluding Gwen and Tosh, and I'm really not comfortable at the idea of all the guys knowing but the women not.

I did like Ianto obviously disagreed and disagreed very strongly with Jack's decision; that seems to follow his compassion as well for the missing people.

There are plenty of secrets it would be perfectly legitimate to keep. This wasn't one of them, and smacked a lot more of Jack sulking than actual reasons. He is the leader of Torchwood, and a very good one, but he's not entitled to a free pass on having his actions questioned when he makes an effort to make something that's fairly mundane into a mystery.

I'll have to watch again but I got the distinct impression that Owen did know. I don't necessarily disagree with you on the Jack thing and keeping secrets but I guess I'm more willing to give him a buy for a few reasons but the chief one is that if he'd done it differently there would have been no episode and it's not his fault the writers went this way instead of writing us another Sleeper or Kiss Kiss Bang Bang.

*hee* True! I just wish Jack had either *had* a reason (even a non-world-ending one, but one that would not make him look arbitrary) or even better, if Gwen and Tosh has investigated on their own and found it and *then* he came in and explained.

..but then there would have been missed Jack/Ianto sex. Hmm. Hard decision.

Oh god, yes, wanted to strangle- and yet at the same time, I couldn't help but think, "Oh, Gwen, you're a full adult and you've never learned that using the thing you're fighting about as an excuse is a *bad idea?*"

I think more than being kind of hardened by his immortality, Jack's gotten careless. With himself, with the people around him, physically and emotionally. He doesn't think things through, he doesn't train a successor, he doesn't *prepare,* because he makes the assumption that he's always going to be there, that he's always going to be in control, that his is the final word. Because clearly, he knows more than they do, he's been around longer and seen the future, so he should hoard his secrets and dole them out in the form of funny jokes and vague references to the future, instead of actually *preparing* his team. He doesn't even have to tell them about their future! He just needs to tell them the important stuff! Shouldn't he have gotten over this "man of mystery" crap by now?

And I feel kind of awkward about the way they're handling his relationship with Ianto. The first couple of episodes it was kind of cute, and I thought Jack had genuinely learned something, was having real feelings, a real relationship, the whole deal, but more and more I get the feeling that Ianto's invested, but Jack... really isn't. In a way that makes me deeply uncomfortable in a "this can only end badly" sort of way.

Yes. Ianto. Yes yes yes. I was a lot happier when I thought they were both in it for the lulz and sex and maybe Ianto had a crush and they just wanted someone with them.

But yeah, Ianto is showing signs of genuine feeling and that makes me nervous.

I dunno; I was worried about the same thing (Ianto caring more than Jack) but it seems like he knows where he stands now, even if we don't, quite. He seems both happy and comfortable. And if he's happy and comfortable that they're just shagging, that's OK with me; it's just the happy and comfortable that I care about, you know?

At least, this one was much more on that side of things than the Jack-might-love-Gwen-fest at the wedding.

I... hmm. I feel like Ianto has been emotionally involved pretty much from the beginning. Even back at the series one finale, in that confrontation with Owen: "Jack *needs* me." And Jack coming back and asking him on the date, that whole scene, to me at least, read very much like Ianto thinking, "I'm totally going to get screwed over with this... oh, who am I kidding, it's not like I'm going to be able to say no anyway." And for a few episodes I thought Jack had really matured during his time being tortured for a year, but then.. nope! He hasn't changed a bit. And that makes me feel sorry for Ianto. For the rest of the team, too, but Ianto especially. He has a certain level of, shall we say exposure? that the rest of the team doesn't have.

Bah. If Jack does something stupid and leaves them again the series two finale, I'm gonna reach right into my laptop screen and choke a bitch. Not that it'll do me any good, what with the immortality and all, but still. It'll make me feel better.

Also, what was with the gothic, water-dripping-from-the-walls concrete bunker rooms? I would be primal-howling for twenty hours a day too!

Doesn't Jack figure out that Ianto helped Gwen? It would be interesting to see if there's any fallout from that, either in the "You betrayed me! Again!" vein or just acknowledgment that they disagree on some things. And although Ianto does appear to be a lap-dog (he he!) in some respects, he argued with Jack about telling Gwen so he does feel they're on an equal footing, while considering that Jack is still the boss.

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