sgareview: miller's crossing, 4.9, specific reaction

Everything I Would Say about Miller's Crossing and John by liviapenn.



Seriously. Seriously. That wasn't psychotic, sociopathic, or insane. Immoral, sketchy, ethically questionable, yes.

Randomly, and separate from Livia's post.

What seems to be overlooked is that Wallace is the least innocent victim here. He kidnapped Jeannie and then McKay. He injected Jeannie with nanites to get them to work on the cure. He did not fall from a magical cloud of innocence to be brutally killed so John could continue getting free access to Rodney's ass and/or satisfy random bloody urges. Wallace injected Jeannie knowing there was no cure. If Jeannie had died, he was a de facto murderer right there--it was premeditated, he did mean harm. And I'm pretty sure that "I didn't mean to kill her with it" isn't going to fly in the face of the fact that at the time there was no cure for the nanite problem.

It was ethically wrong, and probably bad bad bad--but on the other hand. Hmm. On the other hand, I don't see a problem with it at all. I don't have a problem with John killing Kolya when Kolya was going to kill him and his team, or the Genii in The Storm/The Eye who were going to kill teh people of Atlantis, I had very little problem with Ronon killing his commanding officer for fucking them over, I seriously have no issues with the death of random Wraithes at all.

I'm not sure why Wallace gets a special classification when he's as guilty as they are.

And I dont' see how a choice that John makes between the life of Jeannie (and Rodney, the Pegasus galaxy, and maybe all species of life in the universe) and Wallace falls under psychotic.

To me? It feels pretty damn human.

Comments

[summertea.livejournal.com]

*squints* people think it was psychotic? i thought it was pretty logical, in exactly the way you've mapped it out. immoral, yes, but absolutely logical and not psychotic.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

*nods* Exactly. Immoral, yeah, but pretty much a *normal* reaction. And not any differnet from what Wallace did to Jeannie.

people think it was psychotic?

I am trying to block the memories of the entries I read that were all OMG SO PSYCHOTIC!!!!11! and SOCIOPATHIC HEE because dear God. Gah.

[eleveninches.livejournal.com]

I don't have a problem with John killing Kolya when Kolya was going to kill him and his team, or the Genii in The Storm/The Eye who were going to kill teh people of Atlantis, I had very little problem with Ronon killing his commanding officer for fucking them over, I seriously have no issues with the death of random Wraithes at all.

ITA. If someone's going to classify John as psychotic then they're going to have to classify Ronon and Teyla psychotic as well. Hell, if that's the basis for John being insane, Teyla must be super insane after Missing.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

God yeah. Ronon? Super Psychotic, admit to ward yesterday. Teyla, same deal. Hell, half of Atlantis who ever carried a gun. Rodney's shot at people, which is intent to kill someone be psychotic.

...I shall have a diet pepsi now and be dark.

[tingler.livejournal.com]

Totally. It didn't even feel immoral to me. I'm repeating myself here, but I think that John felt it was maybe a little bit horrible to feed someone to a Wraith? Okay, really horrible. But that guy took *Rodney*. And Rodney’s *sister*. And hey, Tod was *hungry*. John just did what needed to be done, that’s all. He didn’t enjoy it. He maybe kind of wishes the guy hadn’t freaked out at the last minute and that he’d had to hold him still for Tod, but really, he only did what had to be done. Because Atlantis needs Rodney. And if the Marines that were there maybe kind of look at him funny now, well, they’re all at the SGC, so he doesn’t have to deal with them anyway, right?

[seperis.livejournal.com]

*starts giggling hysterically*

I'm sorry, but the image is just--too much. Must lie down now kthx.

[green-grrl.livejournal.com]

Word. I expected John to spell it out, though he didn't; but I figure it was going through Wallace's head anyway: Wallace admitted he knew he was going to prison when he first kidnapped Jeannie. He had to know he was courting capital punishment when he went the next step and injected her with the nanites. So he could either let Jeannie die and face his own grief and guilt and the additional knowledge he'd torn apart the Miller-McKay family as well, while waiting for his kidnap-murder trial to wend its way through the courts. OR, he could escape the suicidal grief he'd been trying and failed to prevent, and try to prevent another wrong consequence from his actions at the same time. Frankly, I don't think John had to push too far. Wallace's choice, and he made it.

The other dodgy bit, I thought, was that Tod will get a black mark on his record from John's report that he overpowered "food" that was freely offered to him. Rodney was talking about ways for him to prove his trustworthiness to them -- which, I hate to say, so far he has -- but the record won't reflect that. SGA-1 will know he's been cooperative and safe, but random SGC and IOA decision-makers won't.

(Why, oh why, with that makeup job, didn't they name him Ace?)

[seperis.livejournal.com]

*nodnodnod*

Exactly.

You know, with Todd, they're doing a *lot* better job of making the Wraith understandable than with Emo!Michael.

[sapphiresmuse.livejournal.com]

Exactly! Yes, dammit, Exactly that! I don't get the psychotic classification either.

I loved that John gave up a piece of his soul to do something that some might view as morally or ethically questionable to save his people, who were innocents in this. I adore the implications that John has to and can make those kind of hard decisions. And I love that this ep will stick with me for just those reasons. It's the same reason the Michael ep sticks with me. All the moral and ethical dilemmas.

But Wallace? *He* killed his own daughter, nearly killed Jeannie and if John chose to remind him of that and give him an option that helped out those Wallace had hurt . . .

What haunts me? What happened in that room when the Wraith fed on Wallace. John witnessing it. Did Wallace go gentle or will his screams haunt John?

What gives me fangirl squee? OMG, the *lengths* John will go to to protect his own. What if there had been no Wallace? Would he have been in there offering himself instead?

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Exactly! Yes, dammit, Exactly that! I don't get the psychotic classification either.

It's got to be an omgsohot thing. Which I totally understand. *g* In fanfic. That's AU. Gah.

But Wallace? *He* killed his own daughter, nearly killed Jeannie and if John chose to remind him of that and give him an option that helped out those Wallace had hurt . . .

Yes, exactly. *Exactly*. And with Jeannie, unlike with his daughter, he *knew* it was going to kill her. So yeah, low sympathy there.

What haunts me? What happened in that room when the Wraith fed on Wallace. John witnessing it. Did Wallace go gentle or will his screams haunt John?

John witnessed it, I totally agree there. He wouldn't let it happen any other way. Though I kind of wonder if they knocked Wallace out first, which would make better sense for both emotional and practical reasons (not wanting Wallace to suffer, or back out, or you know, *fight*.)

What gives me fangirl squee? OMG, the *lengths* John will go to to protect his own. What if there had been no Wallace? Would he have been in there offering himself instead?

*mulls*

Yeah, he would have, I think. John's always put the mission/his people/the greater good first. I can't see him, given the choice, not doing it if that was what had to happen.

[dovil.livejournal.com]

You could maybe, maybe say that it was temporary insanity on Wallace's part having been driven to extremes for what he did to Jeanie, but to be honest I don't think that the text reads that way at all. He seemed to be acting perfectly rationally and calmly. I mean the guy had the needle there all set up and ready to go - it was basically the great motivator of 'if my daughter dies, your sister goes with her'. If that isn't attempted murder I don't know what is, and if Jeanie had died, hell yeah he'd be up for murder. It would be no different than him injecting her with cyanide and expecting McKay to come up whisk something up.

And no, I'm sure he wasn't in his rational mind when John sat down for their little talk, and there was pressure (I love the fact that John went out and flinched those photos). But he wasn't stating anything that wasn't true, the guy was responsible for Jeanie, and by his actions it would mean that a husband and a child would lose her.

Do I think that John would have pulled this if it wasn't one of his 'team', probably not. But do I think he was psychotic for doing so? Not even close.

So, erm, I agree. :)

[seperis.livejournal.com]

God. Yes. YES TO ALL!

[anitac588.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure why Wallace gets a special classification when he's as guilty as they are.
I have no problem with what John did, but I did like seeing Steven Culp on SGA, and would have enjoyed seeing more of him.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

*g* Yes.

[djinanna.livejournal.com]

I'm just utterly amused at the line "John Sheppard, pretty pretty psycho princess". Or was it "John Sheppard, psycho pretty pretty princess"?! I get so confused....

But seriously. Poor John. And now Atlantis doesn't even have a sketchy shrink for him to avoid seeing...

Otherwise? What you-all said.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

*pleasantly* ONe day I am going to snap and rant at fandom for that princess thing. It will feel very, very good.

...and end me up on fandom_wank?

But it will be worth it.

[trobadora]

I completely and utterly agree with everything you say. I haven't seen too many "psychopath" comments, though, and I'm glad about that. *sighs*

[seperis.livejournal.com]

*flat look* I have never been so close to flipping out. But luckily, I had coffee.

...I had coffee *then*.

[that_mireille]

I am glad that my limited involvement in SGA fandom means that the people reacting to this on my friends list did *not* go to the "psychopath" place. That... you're right. It doesn't fit at all.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

I love when people diagnose without any idea of what they are saying. I sometimes say the sky is made of marshmellows. It has the same legitimacy.

...I am working on my temper, yes. *g*

[rageprufrock.livejournal.com]

My problem with it (and I mean problem in the sense that John is going to be wearing the scars from this forever) is that it wasn't an honest death. Wallace had given up, he'd already been captured — John just…talked him into suicide. There's something elementally frightening about that. If he'd attacked, then yes, I think it would have been easy for John to shove him in Todd's direction and say, “Have at it!” but he brought him into the room all calm-like and handed him over. I don't think John's psychotic, adn I think that Wallace's guilt/innocence is a separate issue from what John is going to be feeling in the wake of all of this.

[mecurtin.livejournal.com]

John just…talked him into suicide. There's something elementally frightening about that

You betcha. It *is* sociopathic, in that it involves (apparently) cold-hearted manipulation of other people's feelings for his own ends. John isn't a sociopath, because he's not like this all the time, but the fact that he can get in such close touch with his inner sociopath is *extremely* scary.

[sffan.livejournal.com]

Psychotic? Really?

It would not have bothered me at all if John had to arm-twist that bastard into walking into that room with the Wraith. Because I completely, utterly agree with you - Wallace was the greatest wrong-doer.

For me, this fits into the badass!John category. Which puts me in a very happy place. I think what's frightening everyone into saying "psycho" or "sociopath" is how calmly John did it, with no sign of juggling with his conscience. And in this situation, I really don't think John would have a problem with his actions. Wallace deliberately endangered his team - there is no grey with John over that. None whatsoever. Wallace, by his own actions, made himself the enemy.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Me either. Exactly.

[mecurtin.livejournal.com]

It'll probably take several days for my own post, but it seems to me that when people say John is "psychotic" they're trying to avoid thinking about what he really is, which is a war criminal. People talk a lot about him killing the Genii with the shield, but I think that's an expression of their discomfort with the idea of soldierly killing in general -- because by military standards that wasn't problematic *at all*.

But there are a bunch of things he's done (and Weir, and the rest of the expedition) that are *way* beyond the bounds of military ethics, especially in their treatment of prisoners and their laissez-faire attitude toward torture. Wallace is the most human example, but he's not the first.

Calling John "psychotic" is a way of rejecting his behavior here, saying "I would never do such a thing, you'd have to be crazy." It's also a way of saying, "John scares me" -- as well he should. He's a terrible soldier, both in the sense of inspiring terror, and in the sense of being bad at it. Rodney is quite right to scoff at John for dragging out the chain-of-command argument, which canonically emphasizes that what John does is deeply unmilitary.

so ...

[fiordeligi.livejournal.com]

I just wrote this huge long post and then deleted it because it seemed self-indulgently long. I just wanted to say - yes, I think the show has differentiated John successfully from the archetypal military man (black mark, refusal to obey orders ...) so his decision to guilt Wallace is one that I think is deeply personal and also unmilitary. That's where I think the moral anxiety comes in for viewers - it's not about John-as-killer, which we've seen over and over again and which I have no problem with.

I'm surprised to hear other comments saying John has no problem with what he's done, because I think the final scene is *all about* his own lingering guilt, which I think arises not from the act of killing Wallace (because he was a creep) but from the emotional *sloppiness* of the guy's death. So, John's clearly not a psycho, but he's also neither a typical, pragmatic military man nor unconflicted over the morality of his own choices in this episode.

[emmuzka.livejournal.com]

As I saw it, John acted perfectly in character. He is all "leave no man behind", and leaving Rodney behind would have also meant leaving Atlantis in trouble. The only rhing a bit OOC was the "let's go lunch"-type of ending, like the writers wouldn't themselves have truly realized the moral issue they raised

But, his act *was* highly unethical. Talking a murderer to commit a suicide would be just as much criminal than talking an innocent perso for committing one. Overall, the victim's sins should not be taken account when determining the legality of a killing act.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

*nodnodnod* Yes.

Also, argh, it went through before I finished.

But, his act *was* highly unethical. Talking a murderer to commit a suicide would be just as much criminal than talking an innocent perso for committing one. Overall, the victim's sins should not be taken account when determining the legality of a killing act.

True--I won't argue the ethical wrong here--but I do argue that there's a pretty big divide between Jeannie McKay and Wallace in terms of ethical boundaries. I do see a very big ethical differnce between those two things in terms of ethics, because in this case, Wallace is being asked to fix his own mistake.

I wonder, though. If Wallace had set a bomb and was the onloy one that could defuse it, sending him in to defuse it so people wouldn't die but he definitely would--would that be "more" ethical?

I think the problem I'm having is the fact that Wallace's actions are the direct cause of this. He *did* deliberately infect his own daughter, and then when she was in danger, infected another woman with the equivalent of an incurable disease. I--honestly can't see how the greatest evil going on is John telling him, you need to fix your fuck up.

[nymphaea1.livejournal.com]

Well, you know I have no patience for that sociopath nonsense.

These discussions highlight precisely why I will never be BFF with fandom. Armchair psychology annoys me on the best of days even when applied to characters whose lives are remotely similar to your average fan person's.

While I would certainly never advocate not talking about the ethics of what our characters do, I would like it to be done with a) a whole hell of a lot less glibness and b) on a more even playing field.

People have been bitching at the team to compromise with the Wraith since pretty much season one. Well, this is what happens when you make the Wraith your allies rather than fight a war with them. They still have to be fed, which means you have to choose who you're willing to sacrifice. Those are your choices. Fight the Wraith with whatever weapons you have or at best choose who dies. There's not a morally un-murky choice to be had there.

And you know, if we're going to call people to the carpet for their war crimes, there's not a single team member who shouldn't be on trial. Even Rodney the woobykins. The minute I see some posts calling him a psychopath, I will at least be able to see there is some method to this whole sociopath madness. Until then, I will continue to look at it as it is--selective blindness.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

OH hell yes. But the day anyone accuses Rodney of not being an innocent victim of everything and nothing he ever does is even *vaguely* ethically suspect....

It will be like seeing a unicorn. IN one's living room. Offering three wishes.

[cold-poet.livejournal.com]

To me? It feels pretty damn human.

Uh, yeah. For me it all came down to: Rodney was willing to sacrifice HIMSELF. Lets give the guy who ACTUALLY caused the problem the chance to do it instead.

And then there's just all sorts of interesting parallels that pop up within the episode itself. Wallace was perfectly willing to sacrifice himself for his daughter, and to sacrifice Jeannie for his daughter.

It's not that much of a leap to understand that Rodney would feel the same about himself, that John would be willing to do the same thing.

I think that's where people might be reacting poorly to John's actions - they are similar to the bad guy's. God forbid we have a shades-of-grey character. *rolls eyes*

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Exactly. Exacty. But Wallace apparently isn't *psychotic* so it is differnt and he is a victim! OF MOJO!

Gah.

I need cookies in the worst way.

[slybrarian.livejournal.com]

I think one reason why many people are having such a breakdown is that what John did this time is very different from what he's done before. Killing the Genii soldiers, killing Kolya, killing the humanized Wraith, those were all clear military decisions, done in the heat of the moment when there was no time to think through all the possible options. This time, though, John deliberately set out to do something horrible to Wallace in order to protect Rodney. It was a cold, calculated decision, and what was worse was that it wasn't a matter of just shooting someone, but instead taking an emotionally unstable man and talking him into a very painful suicide. What John did was certainly morally dubious, at best, but it was probably just and is certainly understandable. In the end, it was Wallace's decision, and as he said John just presented the situation to him.

If John was really psychotic, then the last scene would have been very different. John was clearly distraught about what he'd done, and to me that and his motivation are what makes it acceptable. John's always been willing to go to extremes to protect his team, and in this case he found the only way he could have done it. If John had fed Wallace to the Wraith without his consent, had chosen some innocent person, or done it because it was convenient or for revenge, then John would have been sociopathic. As it is, he's just a man put in a horrible position and took the path that had the best and most just outcome, and still had remorse afterwards.

Of course, that doesn't change the fact that it's a lot harder for people to ignore the fact that John's a soldier and is willing to do terrible things to protect his people, which is probably why there's so much flailing in the first place.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Teh thing is--the emotional instability was due to the man murdering via replicators. I mean, we didn't drag this guy in because he was there--Wallace got the talk because he caused the situation, and pretty much caused his own emotional distress. It's like a guy arguing in court he shouldn't go to prison for killing his wife because then the kids won't have parents. Not a good argument to make.

...I am probably arguing what you are saying. *sighs* I need to *stop doing that*.

As it is, he's just a man put in a horrible position and took the path that had the best and most just outcome, and still had remorse afterwards.

Of course, that doesn't change the fact that it's a lot harder for people to ignore the fact that John's a soldier and is willing to do terrible things to protect his people, which is probably why there's so much flailing in the first place.

Yes, exactly.

[amberlc.livejournal.com]

I agree w/ your characterization of John's actions. He was between a rock and hard place and took the best option available for the good of the people *he* cared about. It was a bit shocking because Stargate usually doesn't go that route. Or at least SG1 didn't. SGA? More and more they make decisions that surprise me. SG1 was a lot more black and white than SGA and while I love both shows, I'm really enjoying what SGA is giving us.

As far as the fannish reaction - to be fair, after the Burbank con (I think that was the one) where Joe said Sheppard was that special combination of pretty princess and psycho, I think that phrase is just sort of in the fannish minds right now. If you sat someone down with a definition of a psychopath and asked them if they thought it really fit John Sheppard? I would say no and I'm guessing most others would as well. The same could probably be said of the princess label. I mean, really, it's just . . . silly. I mean, do people seriously think John is nothing more than a sociopath who likes sparkly curtains? I doubt it. (I hope not, anyway.) It's just a funny phrase to toss about, I think, so it catches on.

I posted something filled with incoherently phrased flailing directly after the episode aired and used the pretty psycho princess phrase or close to it, but I don't think that he is actually psychotic or unhinged or overly feminine. Now I feel kind of bad about posting that phrasing because I wouldn't want people to think I actually believe John Sheppard is a sociopath. I think he can be coldly ruthless when he feels he has no other choices and the juxtaposition with the laid-back exterior and the fierce loyalty to and caring for his team/city/family is fascinating and um, kind of hot. *cough* (I blame Smallville fandom for my fascination w/ this type of character.)

The main point of all this rambling being, perhaps many of these comments can be taken w/ a grain of salt?

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Well, the good of hte people and to keep around the Wraith who is their best chance in the universe of stopping the replicators. Also, agreed with what you said there. *g*

It's just a funny phrase to toss about, I think, so it catches on.

If it wasn't such a fanonical thing already, sure. And I don't think everyone who uses it doesn't use it tongue in cheek. But there are enough who still subscribe to the misogynist school of m/m = macho man/weak woman in both their meta and their fic that require a certain amount of suspicion whenever the phrase is used in certain contexts.

[not-sally.livejournal.com]

I agree with you 100%. Still, I love to think of John as a psycho killer robot.
This season he's been emoting so much he completely screws up this, but it's fun, imagining him monologuing a la Dexter.
Hee.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

*happy* I write AU with John the psycho killer robot. It makes me happy.

[skeddy-kat.livejournal.com]

I also agree with you. John knew damn well that Rodney would find some way to throw himself at the Wraith and/or Jeanie would die. John wasn't going to let Rodney die. In the scene with Wallace he tells him that Rodney blames himself but that John knew better and so did Wallace. John (rightly) sees the situation as Wallace's fault. Since he caused the mess, John thinks he's the one who should pay, so he "presents the situation" to Wallace.

I think what John did is totally in character. He has shown time and time again that he'll protect the ones he cares about, his family. Just like he said, he'd do anything for those guys. What makes it such a terribly painful choice for John is that he knows EXACTLY what he's asking Wallace to do - he's been through it himself.

He's not a psychopath or a sociopath. He's just a man faced with no good choices, so he took the one he could live with. I don't think he'll live with it easily, but he (and his family) will survive.

As for this:

It was ethically wrong, and probably bad bad bad--but on the other hand. Hmm. On the other hand, I don't see a problem with it at all. I don't have a problem with John killing Kolya when Kolya was going to kill him and his team, or the Genii in The Storm/The Eye who were going to kill teh people of Atlantis, I had very little problem with Ronon killing his commanding officer for fucking them over, I seriously have no issues with the death of random Wraithes at all.

I agree totally.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Exactly. Yes yes yes. I have no words to add but yes and exactly!

[nnmpsn.livejournal.com]

You know, this might make me a scary person, but the immediate connection I made with the "presenting the situation" scene was an old school, English Gentleman Officer kind of "offering the honorable way out" scenario. (my memory is hazy, but I think there's a Sayers mystery where Wimsey takes a guy's confession and then steps out of the room, leaving his gun behind..... that sort of thing.)

Wallace not only admitted he was expecting prison; he started out saying he'd have nothing left to live for if his daughter died. So I'm not sure how much manipulation John would have to do; combine that with Wallace's actions and I have no problem with John's behavior at all.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

I like you so much I kind of want to hug you. A lot.

Peanut butter cookies help

[(Anonymous)]

First, I'll agree with you - all that psychopathic, sociopathic blah blah is just nonsense. And I don't think what he did was particularaly unethical, either.

There are all these double standards out there. We criticize those characters who barge through the Pegasus galaxy insisting that everybody conform to Milky Way codes of conduct. How culturally ignorant and insensitive of them. How rigid and unwilling to accept another point of view. How bumbling and clueless. But doing business in another culture isn't just learning how to line-dance at the Athosian corn festival, there's also a dark and difficult side that needs to be acknowledged and respected. I don't know where I'm going with this, but it seems as if our characters are playing by Pegasus rules - based on Earth ethics, but with a healthy dose of Pegasus reality.

I'm also wondering about how much of John's action was completely his own. Sure, he's a military commander, but not of the SGC or NID or whatever other group was involved. Somebody authorized importing the Wraith, somebody committed all those assets to the situation. Could John have had the authority to decide what would happen to Wallace? I can certainly see him suggesting it, but I can't imagine there wouldn't have been approval from higher up. I don't think this makes Wallace's fate any less disturbing, but it makes John's actions more like one of Jack O'Neill's "damned distasteful things." Of course, it also robs the moment of romantic woobie angst...so maybe not. :-)

What's driven me to the peanut butter cookies is the resurgence of "a man who could cold-bloodedly kill SIXTY Genii soldiers..." As if John took a moment to think, "Hmmmm, I just know 60 soldiers will be coming though that gate. I think I'll kill them all," instead of what he did do, which was CLOSE THE FRIGGIN DOOR!! Grrr, I think I need another cookie.

Eurydice

Re: Peanut butter cookies help

[seperis.livejournal.com]

MMm. Cookies.

As if John took a moment to think, "Hmmmm, I just know 60 soldiers will be coming though that gate. I think I'll kill them all,"

That made me collapse laughing. Seriously.

[patk.livejournal.com]

Thank you for putting everything I thought so eloquently into words. :-) Seriously. :-)

[seperis.livejournal.com]

*happy*

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

Good points, except for the fact that self-defence (Kolya) is really quite different from leading someone into suicide (Wallace) and yet again different from killing him directly, no matter what the reasons.

One crucial point is Who Gets To Decide?, you know? I think Wallace was emotionally distraught, yes, but, as far as I could tell, still in possession of his mental faculties. If by contrast John had shoved him straight into the Wraith's hands, oh, that'd have been different, and I think that if you play this scenario in your mind, John's face in your mind's eye will tell you what I mean.