seperis | what is really getting to me is the assumptions

And the continuing saga of MJ the Comiquette continues.

Gakked from

devildoll

EW's Popwatch reports in and, God help and preserve us, Fox News. No, really.

Also possible appearance on Inside Edition tonight. Did anyone see it? *hopeful*

There are no words for how utterly amazing this is.

As it might encourage trolling.

Also, I am now remembering why I don't date, thanks to pages eight, nine, and ten of DD's lj. Some of the comments are funny, some are kind of incoherent, and some make me sad, that there are people in the world who have never, ever been in visual range of a real woman who was able to talk. Tragic.

I--you know, despite that, the overall negative response to the statue surprised me. Granted, I'm mostly hitting blogs of my own people here, but I've read everything linked off of When Fangirls Attack. What I now *wish* I had done is save links to the really interesting ones.

However, I did bring it up with a woman at work and she disageed entirely, which turned into an interesting discussion. I didn't agree with a lot of her points, but her background is very different from mine and I could see where she was coming from. I honestly can't do justice to her views, but they were very well expressed and, to me, pretty reasonable. Which had the side benefit of making me less--cranky would be such an understatement--with the online version, though honestly, there were few ljs or blogs that covered an opposing viewpoint without resorting to the "hysterical" fangirls argument or the "more important things" argument, which Jesus H, I work state funded assistance for people in poverty. I know exactly, to the dollar amount on the FPIL and allotments for TANF and for that matter, the income limits on the low income subsidy for Medicare Part D, how many more important things there are. And I just trotted out credentials, Jesus, but the thing is?

I, and the rest of the people protesting, shouldn't have to.

And it just--the trolls were annoying but they're trolls, blink and forget them; I can't take seriously anyone who uses netspeak and talks about rape with five exclamation points. The ones I got annoyed with seemed to be under the impression that no one they were addressing had jobs, or did community service, or had any kind of participation in anything else. Which begs the question of why they assumed that off the bat, because honestly, people online--from my observation--tend to be *more* active online in things like this because they also assist social issues and services in their offline lives as well. They help at homeless shelters or rape conseling sites or volunteer for different organizations, contribute money to different causes. I think sometimes, one contributes to the other, makes it easier, or natural to extend that to other areas.

Which to compare it to my work; I have one client who is homeless and needs food stamps and housing assistance. I have another with a crappy job and also needs food stamps and housing assistance. One's situation is far more dire. I can help both. I don't have to choose. In fact, in a single day, I can get a lot of these situations fixed or sent to the people who can fix them. Maybe even more than two. Maybe forty. Maybe if my phone stats are anything to go by, two hundred and fifty a week, ranging from healthcare to battered women to children needing Medicaid to referring to the local agency that handles housing and employment assistance to the elderly who can't figure out how that Medicare Part D thing works. Then I go home and bully Child into doing his homework.

And surprise, surpise, I can also say the MJ statuette is breathtaking in its sheer tastelessness and the images it presents and not take a thing away from the others. Imagine that.

And surprise, surpise, I can also say the MJ statuette is breathtaking in its sheer tastelessness and the images it presents and not take a thing away from the others. Imagine that.

Jenn, have I mentioned lately how very awesome you are? Because you are AWESOME. Seriously.

Also, Fox News? Wow, baby -- we've hit the big time now!

The Fox thing was my hysterical giggling point, because *man*. Yes.

And the part that dazzles me is it started so small and just *exploded* into this issue, and that is possibly the best part of all of this.

Not to mention the fact that the Spidey pic is pretty much *everywhere*.

Yeah, It popped up on Inside Editon. I just caught as I was flipping through the channels.

*bounce* I checked their website and I dind't see anything.

God I hope someone tapes it. Or youtube's it. *crosses fingers* What did they say?

I really just caught bit of it. They mentioned the statue, and the outrage from bloggers. They also mentioned the compmany says the statue sold out.

I just got done collating all these links for girl-wonder.org:

When Fangirls Attack (http://womenincomics.blogspot.com/2007/05/special-outrage-of-week-edition.html) (compilation of links from livejournal & blogs)

Pandagon.net (http://pandagon.net/2007/05/15/spiderman-toy-sets-up-legions-of-nice-guys-for-serious-disappointment-when-they-emerge-from-their-caves-and-interact-with-real-women/") / Feministe.us/blog (http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/05/14/because-a-womans-place-is-doing-the-laundry-in-pearls-barefoot-with-her-thong-showing-not-to-mention-her-ass/) / Feministing.com (http://feministing.com/archives/007031.html)

Boingboing.net (http://www.boingboing.net/2007/05/15/thongy_figurine_of_s.html) / Entertainment Weekly’s PopWatch blog (http://popwatch.ew.com/popwatch/2007/05/spiderman_tiein.html) / The New York Post (http://www.nypost.com/seven/05162007/news/nationalnews/mary_jane_is_spidey_sensuous_nationalnews_neil_graves.htm) / Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,273092,00.html)

Scans Daily (http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/3500660.html) / Metaquotes (http://community.livejournal.com/metaquotes/6060996.html) / Ohnotheydidnt (http://community.livejournal.com/ohnotheydidnt/12432261.html) / fandom_wank (http://www.journalfen.net/community/fandom_wank/1079327.html)

Fun times!

See, what was interesting to me was-- if you check out some of the very first comments on scans_daily or Devildoll's journal, the reaction to the statue's critics is, "What's so bad about THIS statue? Why didn't you complain about XYZ cover or ABC statue? This statue isn't so bad, so it's stupid and pointless to get all outraged about *this* and therefore ignore all the *worse* sexism in comics."

And then when we pointed out that, um, you know, there are plenty of feminist comics bloggers like Kalinara and Ragnell and Kphoebe and Stephen and Rachel E. and-- on and ON, you know-- not to mention girl-wonder.org itself. So, we *haven't* been ignoring Everything Else. We talked about the Peej cover and the Star Sapphire cover and the sexualized rape scenes in this comic and that comic and Huntress' stupid new costume and-- we've *been talking* about this stuff.

Then, of course, the counter-argument quickly mutates to "Well-- well, all *that* outrage is a waste of time, you should be doing RL stuff!" Which, I mean, is a criticism that applies to EVERY post that EVERYONE EVER makes about comics, you know? I mean, surely it's just as horrible to actually make a post about who would win, Batman or Captain America, while the rainforest is being chopped down AT THIS VERY MOMENT ZOMG YOU COULD BE DOING SOMETHING ABOUT THAT.

And yet somehow the "But what about the rainforest! And the whales! And the kittens!" derail only ever gets applied to the posts about *sexism* in comics. (Or racism, or homophobia, etc.) Funny how that works.

Oops, here's the correct pandagon link (http://pandagon.net/2007/05/15/spiderman-toy-sets-up-legions-of-nice-guys-for-serious-disappointment-when-they-emerge-from-their-caves-and-interact-with-real-women/)

Oh fantastic. Organized links!

I did like the bizarre escalation there. It read like a freaking *list* of bad counterarguements. I just can't imagine someone *typing* some of it out and not quite picking up the irony. Generally speaking, I think the time spent telling us how not to be outraged could definitely be spent saving a whale.

Then again, I'm amused by how threatening the very *thought* of someone not liking the statue is grounds for hysterical overreaction. Someone should have hit Godwin's Law by now.

*basks in your general awesomeness*

(I'm totally sitting on the fringe and just keeping up through clicking on the occasional link for this one, but I'm blinking and a bit amazed that it hit actual, y'know, mainstream tv.)

That is the best part. I did a little dance. A little dance of *joy*.

In my history-through-media class we are watching Birth of a Nation, so we can see how one movie changed people's perceptions and inflamed decades worth of hatred. Watching the first part today I was kind of amazed that people had been so stupid as to even watch such horrible tripe. I guess I need to update my wonder that people are still investing in such tasteless, awful things.
At least now, it seems, people are a bit more aware of just how stupid such things are.

My history teacher showed us that movie and another one in that line as well. It was--well, surreal.

Honestly, the flamage going on somewhere is encouraging in its own way. That's a fear response. OTOH, I am very tired of seeing new and improved stupidity in DD's comments.

*sighs*

I have to say, I'm still standing here, blinking in stunned silence at the reaction to the MJ maquette.

I am so proud and pleased at this reaction, at the outcry, so glad to see the comics industry being called on this. I'm delighted to see some of my faith in humanity restored, that this statuette is considered disgusting by the greater world at large.

But also? I'm honestly horrified to realise that I didn't even really register it on looking at the statue. Even knowing people were reacting poorly to it going in, it didn't really register because that? Is par for the course.

That so many comics-fen--and not the fanboys this property was aimed at--saw it, shrugged, and moved on is terrifying. That so many of us are that de-sensitised because there is so much worse and just... that our baselines can end up so skewed that being hit in the head only a *little* isn't worth comment. Well, it's really frightening.

It is just absolutely stunning to realise the extent to which women are abused in comics--both in the properties themselves and the female readers. It is stunning to realise that I'd been traumatised into a numb lack of response to the lesser things. It wasn't even burnout, going 'oh, I don't have enough rage left in me to rant,' but actually not registering how much was *wrong* with it at first because I'd seen it all before.

I'm so glad that this came along and made me realise that my baselines had been skewed like that. If nothing else, I'm grateful for that. And I am so glad that the comics industry is being called on it. I'm amazed that it's gone as far as it has and just... god, I'm grateful that other people are finally noticing.

*thoughtful* I think a lot of it is based on the tone of the earlier posts and that very fact--that at first, the response was eyerolling. And then the first rebuttals of "There's so much worse!"

Actually, that's what hit *me*. There's *worse*? And I think a lot of us went to look and were kinda stunned.

*grins* It's encouraging. It's *amazing*. And it's hit a nerve.

Dude, I never thought I'd say, "Yay, Fox News," but I can't believe they posted a link to

logansrogue's illustration. OMG, I am so amused.

Seriously, who would have anticipated *that*? *shakes head*

I can't help but laugh at the silly statuette. To me, the smirk on MJ's face says: "He thinks I'm doing laundry. Laundry. In a bucket. What century is this? Yeah, forget the cute product placement at my feet -- this is a bucket of *starch*. I don't think he'll forget when it's his turn to do the laundry after this."

Of course, that brings up the passive-aggressive crap that drives me nuts in a whole different way.

But I still laugh.

*snickers*

Hey! I love the Huntress' new outfit, it's stupid, and completely pointless as a costume, but I like looking at it.

Those comments don't phase me in the slightest, but I don't really understand how men and women date each other half the time anyway. That statue doesn't offend me so much as it's stupid. Is that really a male fantasy? I've been called sexist in my life, but even I don't fantasize about chicks doing my laundry in slutty clothes wearing pearls. I don't want to fuck Donna Reed.

I always have weird flashes to Stepford Wives and the MC Archive of maximum creepiness. *sighs*

So has anyone found out what Adam Hughes' response has been?

This is based on one of his pinups after all. Loosely based as it seems. His original pinup had very baggy jeans, a larger top and a much more evil smirk on her face.

You know, I liked the pin-up, and I can see how the sketch can fall under that heading easily. And that, honestly, would be something I would hang on my wall if I were into the classic pin-up idea.

And hmm. You know, I haven't seen a response anywhere yet from him or anyone actually involved in it. Must google.

Hey, I just added you to a filter on my lj, you might want to check the top post.

Ok i`v seen some episodes of SGA, now would you know anywhere i could download episodes of the show ? pref. season two....???

I`m air fedex`ìng you large amounts of cuddles and smootchies.....

Off the top of my head? I can't think of any place currently.

I am really just amazed by the reaction to this whole thing.

I was looking back at the post earlier and mine is something like the 4th comment, because I just happened to be starting to check my flist right when she posted. I commented with my disgust, but I'll be honest, I wasn't surprised. And I certainly didn't expect more than just the normal eye-rolling frustration these type of things usually get.

Because the thing is, we do talk about this stuff on lj all the time. About the representation and treatment of women in the media about fan products aimed at the lowest male common denomiter. About the casual misogyny we run into daily. But usually we're just talking among ourselves, venting our frustrations and sharing coping mechanisms. It's so odd to see something that started out as another post like that turn into something so much bigger. Odd and yet strangely hopeful as well.

And I'm with you about the assumptions being the most frustrating. It's a classic tactic in these kinds of debates, if you can assume the other side is young/stupid/bored/lazy/uneducated/just an angry loveless feminist/etc. you can justify dismissing their arguments out of hand without actually wasting time thinking about any of them.

I cannot prove it.

But after reading everything, it feels like it escalated this much not because of our initial reaction, but the hysterical defenses and troll attacks, bringing more attention, more awareness, more people looking not just at the statue, but the attitude of those defending it. The tagline of some of the trolls is YOU TOTALY ARE MAKING THE STATUE SELL OUT!!1111! YAY BOOBIES.

To which I have to say, thank you for making it so damn easy to prove our point. Please, keep doing so. But next time, please practice your grammar. And save some whales, dammit.

As a guy, I cringe at the whole male "how dare you complain!" reaction because it always goes like this:

Comix Dudes: (taking up most of the store) Boobies. Boobies. Boobies. Boobies. Boobies.

Comix Girls: (standing outside) Y'know that whole boobies thing really annoys me. (they talk amongst themselves)

One Comix Dude: (inappropriately loud and creepy) BOOOOOBIIEES.

Comix Girls: Okay, that was over the line.

[Some Comix Girls walk over to the guys]

Some Comix Girls: Hey, that last "Boobies" was way too creepy.

Comix Dudes: OMG HOW DARE YOU AHHHH boobies boobies boobies HEY WHAT IS HER PROBLEM boobies

[Dudes rush at the girls]

Comix Dudes: FEMAZIS* GOING DESTROY THE STORE AND RIP OUT OUR TONGUES SO WE CAN'T SAY BOOBIES.

Comix Girls: Um, actually this was about excess...

Comix Dudes: AHHHH YOU NO LIKE COMIX! HOW CAN YOU INTERRUPT BOOBIES FOR EVEN A SECOND WHEN DARFUR IS BURNING OR SOMETHING.

Comix Girls: Look, can you just go back inside the store? Which you dominate?

Comix Dudes: DON'T CENSORE ME! YOU ARE RUINING ALL THE BOOBIES WITH YOUR DIFFERING OPINION!

I mean honestly, it's like they think even permitting women to express displeasure is the same as burning their entire She-Hulk collection or something. Last time I checked, freedom of speech works all ways and free speech doesn't mean "free of other people calling you a sexist buffoon."

I'm seriously amazed at the fact that in a lj of all places, far, far away from the normal shores of fanboy comicdom, they chose to try to make their point.

It was, in short, about the equivalent of Napolean and Waterloo. But it did have death threats and rape comparisons, so I have to give them marks for artistry. Though I do wish more had learned the art of using the return key between paragraphs.

I seriously think at least a couple of them are convinced that cooties is spread by keyboard. It's very, very disturbing.

Here via

metafandom

I'm seriously amazed at the fact that in a lj of all places, far, far away from the normal shores of fanboy comicdom, they chose to try to make their point.

If you look at it right, that's actually kinda cool. We got them so mad they had to come over to our playground to yell at us. Where we can always just, you know, ignore them!

I do think it was disorienting for them--trapped in a strange place, surrounded by a crowd of not-themselves, no one talking about boobies...

Foreign country.

::is so proud of the internets right now::
Seriously, when I saw this story hit feministe I was really, really pleased. I never expected it to go further than that.

Thank you for the links! (and you too,

liviapenn.

AWESOME (http://brown-betty.livejournal.com/323447.html?replyto=3621751)

Thank you! I really hate the assumption that just because a person gets upset about "trivial" things like the representation of women in comics, they're fixated on that one issue and are doing nothing about the broader issues. What really saddens me about this argument is that it often comes from other women, as if they feel they must pat the little fangirls on the head and explain what true feminism is. I find it insulting, not only on my behalf--I'm 43 and have been a feminist since living in Iran at the age of 14--but on the behalf of all the other fangirls who are feminists and who are concerned with the broader issues.

I think little things have a greater importance than some people would attribute to them. Yes, it's very important to not solely focus on them, I think some people miss the forest for the trees. If you DON'T speak out against little things, or at least notice them and let other people know you notice them, then how do little things change? Change, as one cliche says, takes a long time.

the income limits on the low income subsidy for Medicare Part D

You had me cackling. Doesn't it scare you sometimes how much of this stuff your brain can hold?

BIG FAT WORD.

I was ranting earlier today, and felt exactly the same. Thanks.

I am deeply disturbed when I realize all my best jokes have to do with the Medicare hotline. Five people understand them. I creep myself out at this point.

And thanks. *g* I read your rant, and pretty much yeah to all of it. The weird part is, I don't usually notice this kind of thing. It's not something I tend to have any focus on.

I did bring it up with a woman at work and she disageed entirely, which turned into an interesting discussion. I didn't agree with a lot of her points, but her background is very different from mine and I could see where she was coming from. I honestly can't do justice to her views, but they were very well expressed and, to me, pretty reasonable. Which had the side benefit of making me less--cranky would be such an understatement--with the online version

I think the online version has now become so skewed that anyone with an argument that isn't entirely condemnatory of the statuette is going to keep silent. I have my own take on it, which does differ markedly from most of the things I have seen online, but I am not going to express any of it because I certainly don't wish to be seen to be even slightly on the side of the trolls. The closest comments I have seen to how I personally feel (and interestingly they were made by someone who self-identified as a similar sexuality and socio-political stance to mine) were made early in the discussion, before the trolls really got going. I think it has now got to the stage where those views are probably not going to be expressed on LJ in unlocked posts. Not unless someone comes along who is unaware of the volume of the rest of the discussion. (And God help them if they do because they will get eaten alive at this point!)

Which is not to say I am having some huge whine about feeling stifled or unheard or anything, because I'm not - I'm just offering up a possible explanation for why the debate has become so extremely black and white and you had to speak to an offline friend to find anything different.

Oh, here via

metafandom, btw.

Hmm. I think you're right, with qualifiers. But--yeah.

I think also it was easier with her because it was face to face and not subject to the vagaries of textual communication between fundamental strangers. And that's probably what makes me the most pissed with the trolls--it stripped away the ability of either side to be able to make their point without recrimation or worry of retaliation. And frankly, it introduced too much emotion into the equation, the wrong kind; the focus moved from "why is this offensive?" and "This is why." to responding to personal attacks constantly. I mean, seriously, death threats, rape jokes, feminazi--it was confirming the worst stereotyped behavior of comicfen. Humiliating too, because I'm fannish and whether I like it or not, these are my distant fannish cousins showing up at the barbecue. They're not just the face of comic fandom, they can easily be thought of as the face of *fandom* in some circles.

I think also it was easier with her because it was face to face and not subject to the vagaries of textual communication between fundamental strangers.

Yes. I'm afraid that recent bad experiences have made me conclude that most of these social issues simply can't be discussed online in public posts. They can be ranted about, and frequently are, which does serve a useful function of consciousness raising, but they can't be discussed in any meaningful way. The dehumanising effect of the internet makes it impossible. It is such a shame because the internet, as an international community with a huge fund of different life experiences, should be such a rich source for interesting discussion. But there have been a lot of these types of kerfuffle recently in fandom - about sexuality, race, feminism - and in each case it very quickly became black and white. One group set up a self-policing boundary so that only those in agreement or trolls could get through, and anyone who tried to get through with a more moderate disagreement was greeted as a troll by default and very quickly either lost their temper and started to insult back or left in disgust. I'm not quite sure how the situation starts because I only ever find these things via metafandom so I'm never around at the very beginning.

They're not just the face of comic fandom, they can easily be thought of as the face of *fandom* in some circles.
I doubt anyone who didn't already know a fair bit about fandom would ever get to hear of their activities, so they aren't besmirching fandom generally for anyone who doesn't have ready access to a more balanced overview.

Hmm. It's interesting that the FOX article refers to

logansrogue as "some illustrator" when her actual name is right there in her profile. Part of that "fandom is faceless" thing people were discussing a little while ago I guess. That and it would have involved following like a chain of like three links, which is a bit much to ask of a journalist.

Here via metafandom, btw and in total agreement. Things like this remind me why I don't read superhero comics despite having a soft spot for the genre. And I have a comic brewing in my brain about the stupid logic people use in these sorts of debates, on Girls Read Comics they have some metaphor like "The existence of global warming doesn't mean we shouldn't worry about litter" (only, you know, witty and stuff)

Also, less intelligently: squee! Nancy was on FOX news! (heh, sorry, you don't know me but I do kinda know her. What with this and

cupidsbow's post eating fandom, my little hometown's plans for conquering the internet are coming along nicely :) )

I'm not sure if anyone else already posted this but I caught the clip on Inside Edition. They actually read two quotes from LJ. Unfortunately I can't remember which thread or post they were from. Lord, this has started so much wank I can't even keep track of the comments.

The worst part of the whole segment was right at the end. Inside Edition contacted Marvel for comment and supposedly they responded with the following: "The statue has already sold out."

So basically it doesn't matter what we think of the statue. If enough horny nerds are willing to shell out dough to ~~masturbate~~ enjoy the offending art we should just shut up and go back to doing our man's laundry.

I'm seriously considering whether or not I should keep buying X-Men comics.

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