because it is very early and I'm very awake

The horrible danger of insomnia combined with friendsfriends--God. It's *crack*. I am totally understanding the draw. Currently working on avoiding ep reviews nad spoilers, since I haen't watched The Return yet.

Anyway, while cruising along, I came across an entry--oh, just an entry of SGA squee, pre-episode, mentioning this and that and then, randomly at the end, a sudden diatribe against Joe Flanigan's acting skills. There was generalized horror and repugnance and the usual--weirdly usual, almost rote--discussion of the level of suckitude, so normal I don't even *notice* with any more than a blink.

Huh, I said, and as usual, skimmed and wandered off.

But it being five in the morning, I thought, well. It's fandom, and this is what we do. We sit around dissecting shows, characters, and actors. So I have to ask, because I can--um, what the hell?

I don't pretend to be anything close to an expert on acting, other than hoping Keanu Reeves is given few lines at any given time and a lot of really good shots of him being hot. That's as far as I get on appreciating this nebulous realm of 'good' versus 'bad'. But the fairly constant discussion of Joe Flanigan's lack of talent, lack of emoting, lack of this, lack of that--often paired up, oddly enough, with essays on David Hewlett's brilliance at whatever the poster has watched/did watch/is watching--it really makes me wonder. Otherwise squeeful individuals break into really *sudden* critiques of things like how Joe performed a ten second facial expression during a scene, or lapse into--and this is what's jarring, I'm reading along on meta and halfway through the paragraph just--boom. This sudden really *odd* invective. And at first it was annoying, then I progressed to the shrug/personal taste, then I started to doubt myself and wonder if there was something wrong with *me* that I wasn't climbing on the Joe Sucks At His Job Bandwagon, and progressed to think, wait. Am I sitting here thinking I need to *look* for reasons to critique an actor because half my fandom spends quality time--and a serious number of entries--telling me that he sucks? Was my John bias showing?

Wait, I thought. I like the character of John. The character is played by Joe, who plays the character of John in a way I like. Ergo, I think I like how Joe does his job. I remembered the stuff thepouncer sent me and thought, huh. I liked that, too. That was kind of a relief.

I think at this point, it's just the build-up of seeing it so often--wow, so damned often, Jesus--and seeing it, not always, but a good chunk of the time, in direct contrast to a meta on DH's fantastical talent. Long, long entries on fantastical talent. Long, long entries on fantastical talent and etcetera. And you know, the coolness is there to love the actor. What I can't quite work out is how slamming Joe comes into a essay about how great DH is. Is that--supporting evidence or something? That kind of loses me in wondering what on earth the point is. I'm not sure how repeating in various formats how *much* Joe sucks is somehow going to make the DH adulation more convincing. I mean, I was sort of convinced without it? Then I just got irritated.

So I had this thought. It's a stupid thought, but then, everyone has stupid thoughts and they post them anyway. I was wondering, is there a direct correlation between how dramatic/flamboyant a character is--think McKay, Lex Luthor, Lionel Luthor, Justin Taylor--and the higher incident of actor popularity? I'm thinking of how TW in SV also picked up a lot of flack for being a sucky actor, with the exception of the times he was very flamboyant--Red comes to mind, and the beginning of season three that I can never remember the name of. Or Brian, for that matter in QaF.

Hmm. I feel this weird need to ponder this, but I also feel a real need to clean my bathroom, and neither are getting done at this second, because my greater need is to blankly stare at my flist in hopes I'll get sleepy. I'm just--weirded out by it, I think.

Comments

[with-apostrophe.livejournal.com]

I have so much to say on this subject that I can't even begin to start being coherent.

I love them both. I don't compare them because they are so utterly different as people, and the characters are light-years apart. Also DH has been a pro-actor his entire life, whilst JF has been doing this, what 10 years? McKay gives DH much more scope to do wild and wacky things than JF gets with Sheppard, but still JF keeps on pushing the envelope and chipping away at the bog-standard hero type, and giving us a character that I find both highly entertaining, and for the most part believable (hey, it's Sci-Fi!).

I think what people miss when they start pitting them against each other is the chemistry they have together (Landry's comment in 'The Return' anyone?). They feed off of each other - so whilst DH is doing big and loud, and fast and bozo, JF could be doing react, consider, and respond.

And there have eben times when DH and JF have been in a scene together and Joe has stolen the scene - yes, with his wordless reactions rather than a line (Sheppard glaring at Hermiod anyone?) but that's amazing! Richard Dean Anderson, can do expressions incredibly well - but it was the pacing of his lines that sells him to me as a good actor. With Joe it's his expressions. With David were back to pacing again. With Chris Judge it's expressions. Doesn't mean they're not good actors... just that they have different strengths, which are played upon by how the character is written for them.

And yes, I think people's frustration with JF maybe is because he's not always enthusiastic about the show. I find it refreshing, but not everyone does. Still, it's interesting to see his complaints and how they're being addressed. Joe is used to doing much more character driven stuff (see Family Album - one of his finest performances) and frankly SGA was coming up short (how much fall out was there REALLY for McKay after Trinity? And how did Teyla progress as a character?) and was frustrated by the promises made concerning Epiphany and back-story. Fair enough. As much as I have tried to like it, Epiphany is not a good episode. Because of JF's acting or writing? No, because it was so meddled with and spoilt by other people, that it's frankly mediocre. BUt then so were a bunch of other episodes (The Tower *shudders in pain* anyone?). Joe's complaints do seem to have made a difference, though we'll never know how much. Season three has wonderful character moments, extended character scenes (those bits that are making us all so warm and fuzzy) and *hey* back story!

I have so much to say, but I'm incapable of structuring it properly, so I'm going to hush now, and see what others say.

[shetiger.livejournal.com]

frustration with JF maybe is because he's not always enthusiastic about the show

But from everything I've read, he's highly invested in it. He wants it to get better. He wants backstory for his character and for things to make sense and not look fake. He thinks about his choices and argues for better ones. This is the guy who in the pilot decided that his character would keep Sumner's dog tags, so he made sure that they were always in his bedroom set. This is the guy, who since props wasn't giving him anything personal, furnished his bedroom set with stuff from home.

I've read a couple comments here and there about Joe not caring about acting and/or the show, and I just don't know how you can come to that conclusion (unless you just judge him by his appearance). He might not say/think/do the things fans expect him to do, but that just makes him and John more intriguing to me.

[trobadora]

I've read a couple comments here and there about Joe not caring about acting and/or the show, and I just don't know how you can come to that conclusion

I agree completely with this. In fact, I've often been delighted by how much JF's comments (I don't want to call them "complaints") about the show echo ours, e.g. his wish for more Sheppard backstory, his misgivings about regular contact with Earth... He's obviously very invested in the show.

[clarkangel.livejournal.com]

I have to say WORD to that too. And point out Joe is the one who constantly praises his co-stars. DH the most. Who says he loves his job, he's just not thrilled with some aspects of it. He wants the show to be the best it can be. He begged and begged to write and EP, which TPTB killed, but he still wanted to do it. That's not someone who isn't enthusiastic about the show. He goes to CONS and people say he's shy but adorable. I've NEVER heard a bad word about him from people that have met him.

However, when two ladies got to meet Joe on the set last year and they were Shep fans, a DH/Rodney fan complained, HOw STUPID they weren't not to be all about DH/Rodney. Which was like teh breaking point for me. That's when I actively started disliking Rodney and DH a bit and getting petty in my posts in response becaues I'd had enough.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

I hate to admit, but the high fangirling of DH has, in fact, suppressed a lot of my liking for the character or any interest in the actor as well.

[clarkangel.livejournal.com]

I loved Rodney/DH at first. Not as much as Shep but...close enough. And it was totally the DH fangurling that turned me off him. I seriously HATED him and Rodney, more Rodney really cause it's not DH's fault, but because JOE was being dissed, I guess a part of me blamed DH in some weird/stupid way. I guess it rubbed off. LOL

I was writing McShep stories and had to stop because I couldn't be fair/canon to Rodney any more. And it really killed some of my love for the show fora time. Killed my SQUEE, which I hated. And I still have a KNEE JERK reaction to it. Sadly.

But THE RETURN gave me alot of Squee on a whole lot of levels.

[ileliberte.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean. I know rationally that someone else's opinion has no bearing on mine and really, Rodney's kind of an interesting character with his own complexity but there's so much of the "Sheppard is an unfeeling psychopath!" with its very common corollary of "and he's so meeeaaaan to Rodney!" that it makes me really turn away from Mckay. And of course, the "Sheppard is an unfeeling psycopath!" then leads directly to "Flanigan can't act!" and there go all attempts at rationality :/

[with-apostrophe.livejournal.com]

Oh no, I think I didn't express myself well. Maybe a better way would have been to say that 'he's honest and frank about the show in a way that many other actors in any series aren't'. Also I meant that it's refreshing that he is publicly pushing for better stuff - hence my point about improvements in S3.

But thank you for reminding me how invested he is. I needed that. I'd forgotten some of those points. Yeah, he cares about the show - and he does it by being honest. I did also say I find Joe's attitude refreshing... :)

[shetiger.livejournal.com]

And, oops, I didn't express myself well! I wasn't arguing with you or anything. I think that honesty probably turns some fans off, but for me, it's a positive. :)

[with-apostrophe.livejournal.com]

I really did need reminding of what he's invested into the show. That was tres cool, thanks!

And I agree that anyone who thinks Joe's not serious about the role, who take his comments about Shep being all about kissing the women, needs to find themselves a flippancy detector!

I'm also remembering comments he made about wanting to explore Sheppard's dark side. Ok, we *kind of* got it in 'Conversion' (he wasn't '100% John Sheppard') at the time, but I'd love to see more. Hey PTB - how about letting your leading man flex his acting muscles that way a bit more? The fandom can cope with it!

JF acting

[kiranovember.livejournal.com]

And there have eben times when DH and JF have been in a scene together and Joe has stolen the scene - yes, with his wordless reactions rather than a line

JF acting

[kiranovember.livejournal.com]

And there have eben times when DH and JF have been in a scene together and Joe has stolen the scene - yes, with his wordless reactions rather than a line


One of my favorite moments was in Inferno, while Rodney is babbling to Norina, and John does this full-body eyeroll that just cracked me up.

Re: JF acting

[with-apostrophe.livejournal.com]

That's exactly the moment I was thinking of! AND when Rodney is telling him off for staring at Hermiod - the last evil/freaked out glare he gives Hermiod gets me every time - although of course that wasn't necessarily acting as Joe hates the puppet and was genuinely freaked out and disturbed by it! Who cares? They're TV gold!