Friday, May 28th, 2010 11:03 pm
derivative works in context
Via
cofax7, Boing-Boing on Bookshop's Post
From boing-boing comment:
A lot of arguments about fanfic revolve around the idea of the lack of creativity--which is absurd--the lack of quality--because pro novels are uniformly good, let me refer you to Brian Fucking Herbert before you even bother--but this one, this one....
But as soon as it starts to mean something independent of the original product, it ceases to be fanfic and becomes part of wider culture.
No, it ceases to be fanfic when authors can legally publish it and potentially get paid for it. Diane Duane's Spock's World had exactly as much context to wider culture as D'Alaire's Voyager fic Word Painter.
Cofax goes into the context bit here, which I agree with and keep thinking I want to add to, but it's more complicated than that.
Derivative works already mean something independent of the original product; that's why they were written. So it comes back to the context issue; a derivative work isn't fanfic if it can stand alone without context.
I could say this; all fiction requires context.
I could say this; some fiction requires more context than others.
I could use this: tell me that Apocalypse Now would work if you were not American, did not know the military existed, and lived on the moon. Fiction accesses context consciously and unconsciously all the time, from general cultural context to historical context to language context--Bastard Out of Carolina, hard Southern: Mairelon the Magician, cockney: Ghost Story, very British. The Yellow Wallpaper requires knowing about the treatment of women by society and the patriarchy in the nineteenth century; Raj needs a basic understanding of India's state under British rule and the effects of colonialism.
And
samdonne's Your Cowboy Days Are Over requires some understanding of colonialism and Stargate: Atlantis.
At some point, someone needs to just admit it; it's not about context, and in some ways, it's not even about copyright; it's the subculture around fanfic that makes it unacceptable. Derivative fiction that comes out of mainstream is literary and critical and meaningful and art; derivative fiction that comes out of fanfic communities isn't.
Or as one poster put it:
Yeah. I miss coffee right now.
ETA: Link corrected.
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
From boing-boing comment:
If fanfic wants to be something that expresses a love of / obsession with a particular cultural product and reinforces a shared, often subcultural, identity built around it - which is surely, what fanfic is - then it is unlikely to have much impact beyond that. But as soon as it starts to mean something independent of the original product, it ceases to be fanfic and becomes part of wider culture. Exactly like most of the things on this list, whatever their origins.
A lot of arguments about fanfic revolve around the idea of the lack of creativity--which is absurd--the lack of quality--because pro novels are uniformly good, let me refer you to Brian Fucking Herbert before you even bother--but this one, this one....
But as soon as it starts to mean something independent of the original product, it ceases to be fanfic and becomes part of wider culture.
No, it ceases to be fanfic when authors can legally publish it and potentially get paid for it. Diane Duane's Spock's World had exactly as much context to wider culture as D'Alaire's Voyager fic Word Painter.
Cofax goes into the context bit here, which I agree with and keep thinking I want to add to, but it's more complicated than that.
Derivative works already mean something independent of the original product; that's why they were written. So it comes back to the context issue; a derivative work isn't fanfic if it can stand alone without context.
I could say this; all fiction requires context.
I could say this; some fiction requires more context than others.
I could use this: tell me that Apocalypse Now would work if you were not American, did not know the military existed, and lived on the moon. Fiction accesses context consciously and unconsciously all the time, from general cultural context to historical context to language context--Bastard Out of Carolina, hard Southern: Mairelon the Magician, cockney: Ghost Story, very British. The Yellow Wallpaper requires knowing about the treatment of women by society and the patriarchy in the nineteenth century; Raj needs a basic understanding of India's state under British rule and the effects of colonialism.
And
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
At some point, someone needs to just admit it; it's not about context, and in some ways, it's not even about copyright; it's the subculture around fanfic that makes it unacceptable. Derivative fiction that comes out of mainstream is literary and critical and meaningful and art; derivative fiction that comes out of fanfic communities isn't.
Or as one poster put it:
I read (and watch, and listen to) plenty of things that aren't pushing any artistic boundaries. But I don't pretend it's anything more than popcorn, and for the most part the producers don't pretend it's anything more than popcorn.
Yeah. I miss coffee right now.
ETA: Link corrected.
no subject
From:...At such times the temptation to remind people that they would not have these toys to play with if you had not built them, at great cost of time, effort and quality of life, becomes pretty strong. Now, I've seen people say, "Wow, if I ever got anything published and people wanted to write fanfic in it, I'd be delighted." My response to that is, "May it happen to you, as soon as possible. And then... then we'll see how long you stay delighted." Because sooner or later such writers, unable to resist the temptation, will read their fans' fic... and find characters in bed with each other (literally or figuratively) who in the creator's mind should never, never have been there, or doing things they never should have done.
The key phrase being, of course, "in the creator's mind." The mileage in other minds will naturally vary. The question becomes one of how wildly. Whether what a fan writer does with your creations is brilliant or tawdry, substandard or creatively outstanding, when for the first time while reading a fanfic you hit one of those situations or occurrences that (for good or ill) you would never have created, it's like going downstairs in your house for the millionth time and finding that someone has come along and added a step to the staircase... or removed one. It's very like the feeling of utter uncertainty you get the first time you experience an earthquake, when the solid earth suddenly ain't so solid any more. And the more successful you are, the more frequent the earthquakes get. Is this pleasant? No. Is this par for the course these days, something that just comes with a certain level of success and can't be avoided? Seems so. And even when you stop reading fanfic (as I did some time ago, first because I was afraid I might accidentally/unconsciously lift some concept of somebody else's, and then had the choice strengthened into policy on legal advice), does the concept of what they're doing with your inventions out there give you pause? Oh yeah.
Anyway. I wouldn't have been much of a psych nurse back in the day if I hadn't understood that love does make people do surprising things... often including the (groundless) assertion of ownership of the loved, sometimes in very toxic modes. And I do still understand the impulse now. But the understanding makes those occasional assertions of ownership by those who didn't do the hard work of inventing a universe no less easy to shrug off: especially when the assertions are accompanied by additional claims of moral right, not at all in the usual droit moral sense. The smart writer learns with time to get philosophical about this... as most of the time, realistically, there's nothing else to be done.
Though it has to be said that special cases exist -- and if things go the way it's looking like they will, the YW universe will become one of them. At the moment I have no choice but to be philosophical about what kind of YW fanfic people write when it doesn't chime with my preferences. But soon enough will come the time when the YW books start being filmed. And once I get into bed with Big Business, the rules will inevitably shift. My preference (for example) that the writership stay away from sexual themes involving my young characters will almost certainly no longer be merely a preference, but something the producers/studio will insist on as a way to protect the Young Wizards brand from becoming contaminated by legally toxic perceptions and issues (since the underage of the target audience is implicit in the intellectual property). At that point the position will doubtless become very similar to the way things are handled in the Potterverse now: tacit permission of fanfic as long as it stays within certain boundaries, vigorous action (including legal if necessary) when it strays outside them.
Am I wild about this? Not particularly. Would it be nicer if ficcers honored the series creator's wishes regarding her creation out of respect for those wishes and without enforcement being involved? Sure. Is this going to happen? (bwahahahahaha) No. Here, as in so many other places, life isn't nice.
... And now back to Page One.
(- reply to this
- parent
- thread
- top thread
- link
)
no subject
From:(- reply to this
- parent
- thread
- top thread
- link
)
no subject
From:(- reply to this
- parent
- top thread
- link
)
no subject
From::-D
(- reply to this
- parent
- thread
- top thread
- link
)
no subject
From:(- reply to this
- parent
- top thread
- link
)