Signal Boost: Magicians 4x13 spoilers ongoing, natch

greywash posted: Magicians 4x13 spoilers ongoing, natch

I am one of those who is debating doing a de-rec of the show. Below cut, trigger warnings and spoilers for those who are still unspoiled.

Triggers: depression, suicide, suicide-ideation

I dislike character death, but I've had to deal with it before and a show that airs every nine months gives me lots of time to deal and move on. What I'm not sure I will get over is how they did it and to who. This show has been actually literally good at handling depression and suicide ideation and showing how people live with it, deal with it, both good and bad. I wouldn't have watched this show at all if it had done this badly, so the fact they had the bisexual, depressed, suicidal character and had him commit suicide (for a good plot cause? Uh.) was not okay.

To add suicide-ideation wish-fulfillment...for fuck's sake, that bullshit was a fucking checklist of how you think when you're severely depressed and/or suicidal.

The problem isn't the character death, it's the trust. A show failing on an issue isn't a big deal, every show, even the best, will fail, that's the nature of the beast and of being human; failing is going to happen. The trust was that they would try, they would do the best with what they had, that the mistakes made in execution wouldn't be mirrored in intention, and that they understood what they were writing.

And in all honesty, I might have still been fine; I really enjoyed this show and nine months, I might have gotten over losing my favorite character because honestly, the entire cast is amazing. That is, if the writers had kept their goddamn mouths shut on what they were doing and proved they failed on the most important count possible: they did get what they were writing, about who they were writing, and they did it anyway. This? Was intentional, right up to the suicide-ideation fantasy of what happens next. That was what they meant to do.

I'm not sure people really get the problem isn't character death or even the ship; removing Quentin from the show entirely for good was to me a bad decision, but that's just something that pisses you off and makes you rant about shitty writers, but that's TV. Lost ship: dude, I've shipped all my life and I'm really used to not getting my way. That's why I have fanfic.

(I won't go into how utterly bad the plotting was in this show this season because it wasn't; the problem was it was great plotting and anticipation that was entirely abandoned and threads wrapped without resolution. I say this honestly; the first nine eps of this season were breathtakingly good and then everything that was being built up was just--gone. But that's for later when I'm more objective.)

The problem here was in the choice of how with who, and the fact that actually, the writers did know what they were doing and that's why they did it.

As someone who is mentally ill, that was painful and horrifying and I'm not sure how to be over it when the show decided to represent on screen--as a positive--some of the most dangerously dark moments of my life. I'm not sure how to watch again and not remember feeling horrified, and at this time, I'm in a pretty damn good place both in terms of mental health and mental stability. I know what it must be doing to those who aren't in that place or are in the borderlands.

For those who identify as queer/LGBTQAI/non-binary/non-represented identity and struggle with mental illness--I think devastating is a very gentle word for what many must be feeling after seeing that, and I don't even pretend I know all the ways this must have fucked with them.

I know this sounds dramatic, I know it's not rational, but I'm not rational right now, and it's bothering me enough to put it here.

I recced this show for a lot of reasons, but one of them was for how it handled mental illness and how much work they put into doing it well, showing both short- and long-term consequences and ongoing issues. To anyone who watched because of those recs, I'm so sorry.

Comments

[greywash]

♥ thank you so much for the signal boost, and *gathers you and the rest of her fucked-up mentally ill family into her arms* ♥

[kore]

Yeah, right there with you. And all the showrunner interviews released after the finale just made it worse and worse.

[nymphaea1]

Yeah.

I figured out early on they were going to kill him and knew they were after Julia told him she needs him to stay human. But I am honestly stunned that they did it this badly.

Quentin was my gateway drug. I probably wouldn't have watched it without him because I'm weary of character death as cheap plot point/ emotional torture for remaining characters. But I wouldn't have been mad about it if they'd done it right.

They not only didn't do it right, but did it wrong on purpose!!! And are proud of it!

I have never been so chilled watching an episode of television as I was watching the suicidal character kill himself and then find peace by watching his friends be sad about it. That was my daily fantasy for years in high school. I don't find it triggering now, but even ten years ago I would have. And then for them to be just so sadistically pleased with themselves for it. I find them so loathsome for that alone it colors my entire perception of the show. I don't even know if I can be fannish about it anymore.

This is a far lesser issue, but I do judge them for the lack of resolution for Queliot, too, just because they were so happy to lap up all the praise for 4X05 and market the show on it.

[kore]

They not only didn't do it right, but did it wrong on purpose!!! And are proud of it!

PERFECTLY PUT.

[toujours_nigel]

Hear hear!
I went into the episode expecting Q would die, and I still came out of it devastated because of how Q died, and just the glimmering soft-glow funeral.

[kore]

It's still really striking to me how many of us fans were like "Yes, we were EXPECTING him to die, but NOT LIKE THAT."

And a main character dying permanently never to return, going off into some unknown Great Beyond, is so unlike the entire rest of the show. It's like at best, they were cheating, besides all the complete bullshit "let's have the suicidal queer kid go out in a blaze of glory/he totally would never have chosen to leave these people!" weirdness.

[toujours_nigel]

Right? We got such agonising and long-drawn farewells with Penny, and Alice becoming a Niffin and I was... even when I saw that they'd defeated the Monster with half the episode left I was just gearing into "and now we're gonna widow-wail over the possibility of Q dying" mode. Plus, y'know, Underworld Hijinks With Penny and Quentin!!!
But no. Nope. That sure wasn't the thing they did.

Also I'm worried about what's gonna happen with El, who, uh, isn't so much suicidal as "I'll drug and drink myself into numbness", and that was over Mike.

[kore]

Plus, y'know, Underworld Hijinks With Penny and Quentin!!!

I WAS SO EXPECTING THAT. Build out the library and the Hedge witches more, esp if they're going to join forces! All the librarians are dead, they need new people! Connect the library and Underworld more!

But no. Nope. That sure wasn't the thing they did.

IT SURE WAS NOT. Also, I kind of detested Zen Magical Indian Afterlife Guide Penny. New Penny is sorta like Old Penny Lite plus with Julia, not Kady (why. Why). His disgusted "Oh, great. A - puppet - show," was like Old Penny. I was all nostalgic.

Also I'm worried about what's gonna happen with El, who, uh, isn't so much suicidal as "I'll drug and drink myself into numbness", and that was over Mike.

Yyyyyyyeah plus the showrunners have already gone on about how this affects Eliot and there will always be Queliot as long as there is Eliot and it will have a huge impact, blahblah. Without Q and Fen and with Margo taken up with JOSH ("hot grief-bangin'" my ass), he's really isolated. PLUS, he has spent all year locked away in the happy place while the Monster used his body to torture and kill people! Aaaagh.

I dunno. I guess fandom can write a lot of fix-it fic, like we do best, but I don't even really feel like that at the moment. It takes a lot for a story to get me to let go my fannish grip (happened to a large part with MCU and Infinity War), but this feels like it.

[toujours_nigel]

Margo taken up with JOSH
No, no, didn't Fillory move 300 years ahead while Josh was there with Fen? I can't believe Margo isn't going to violently prioritise Eliot now, but honestly No Trust in TPTB.

Also, I kind of detested Zen Magical Indian Afterlife Guide Penny.
Oh boy, and how. Also the bottle episode where Penny teaches New White Dude that the narrative doesn't center a White Man (... which I now very much hate because of the finale) and then it turns out to have in fact been a lesson for Penny. The Malayali Christian man needed to know that narratives didn't always focus on White Dudes. mhm. cool cool cool cool cool.

[kore]

Yeah, altho she did make that "find my man for some serious grief-bangin'!" remark, which....okay, Margo is often crass and openly sexual (and boy does the show love to combine those two) but I can't think that she would be anything other than glued to Eliot's side for a while because HE'S BACK NOW. She gave up the throne! She risked her life!

I can't believe Margo isn't going to violently prioritise Eliot now, but honestly No Trust in TPTB

....BUT YEAH, if you had said "Margo has the choice of remotely seeing if Josh is okay while she rescues Eliot, OR sticking around and baking shit (WTF) while everyone else rescues Eliot," I know which one I would have picked. She could have gotten Julia to baby-sit him for Chrissakes, or the hedge vet, or SOMEONE. And then the ridiculousness of why she didn't was just underlined when Penny 23 comes back and admits that he prioritized Julia. MARGO of ALL people would never depend on other people to save Eliot. But once again, in an interview (if nothing else this experience may freaking cure me of reading TPTB interviews) they were like, oh, we think it shows real maturity on Margo's part not to be so codependent and to trust other people to go off and rescue Eliot. (When THEY DIDN'T, and she had to go do it ANYWAY.) Like, oh Margo is now mature and really falling in love with Josh for a stable het relationship, and Eliot is now more mature and not fucking around (and not coincidentally is married to a woman and they had a kid and so on).

But anyway, I think "300 years in the future" is some kind of dodge and the Dark King is going to wind up being Plover somehow, because he's invulnerable? (anti-aging spells can ward off superhuman poison? Okay!) and he definitely got away, and every time he's done that before he popped back up later. I bet something happened with Earth getting too much magic (it was shown flowing through the mirrors from when Quentin killed Everett, and the Dean frowning at the globe) and Fillory not having enough (the cistern was completely drained) that Fen and Josh will be blamed for. (Altho it's also a deliberate nod to the opening of Prince Caspian.)

[toujours_nigel]

I hate so very much the "intense friendships are immature" trope, especially as it tends to dissolve into, well, usually hetero romances.

[lemon_badgeress]

Gotta admit, I'm REAL GLAD I hadn't found time to let you lure me back in yet.

[templemarker]

The problem here was in the choice of how with who, and the fact that actually, the writers did know what they were doing and that's why they did it.

That is precisely it!

I'm very iffy on season 5, because on the one hand, I think I'd like to see the ratings take a hit in response to 4x13. On the other, I do genuinely enjoy and watch to watch nearly every other character on the show.

[kore]

Yeah, I love Julia and Margo and Kady and Fen and Penny and Eliot. OTOH, I have a sickening suspicion that the Dark King may be Plover (I believe he slips away in the Library before that guy handcuffs the Dean) and if that happens, the show and I are Done.

[templemarker]

Oh, I really don't think so -- I think Plover would be entirely content to never set foot into Fillory again. Not only is it the place he was tortured for untold years (given the time differential between Fillory and Earth, it is almost certainly longer than the period between his disappearance on Earth and Quentin's entry to Brakebills) but he clearly finds it utterly absurd, only fodder for a product that earned him great wealth and renown. Further to that, if he is out of the Poison Room and into the Library, he could access any one of a thousand other worlds, where no one knows him or what he has done; and he can use the resources of the Library in which he hid for so long to inform him of where to go. If anything, I would expect him to simply resume hiding out in the Library again until such time as another opportunity to gain a magician's assistance to travel to another world appears again.

I suspect fandom ascribes greater villainy to Plover than the show itself does -- the show will call him out on his hideousness, and it will not allow him to be forgiven, no matter how he frames his own actions or rationalizes his immorality; but he is really nothing more than a convenient tool to advance a plot, contextual to his utility and inability to die.

[kore]

....man, I hope so. I truly do. I just see a certain Law of Narrative Conservation re TV shows kicking in, having to do with paying guest stars and recurring roles becoming permanent and if they've already sunk time and plot into establishing a recurring villain....anyway. I just really don't want to see him again. (And I really don't like the contrast between how the show treats him, and how it treated Martin. But that's another thing.)

[monanotlisa]

Thank you for cut-tagging, Jenn!

Somebody else spoiled me for absolutely everything, which...I guess is fine in this case, but generally Not Okay.

I was wanting to go back for any Julia/Kady, but I suppose that pairing is moot?

[anoyo]

I recced this show for a lot of reasons, but one of them was for how it handled mental illness and how much work they put into doing it well, showing both short- and long-term consequences and ongoing issues. To anyone who watched because of those recs, I'm so sorry.

I have a love/hate relationship with OG Penny & Q in the finale. There were some parts of it that were done well, but then, at the same time, the implications. I work in mental health. Have done my entire adult life. The show made it really fucking obvious that Q could have survived. Like, he didn't need to die. THERE WAS NO GOOD REASON. He just fucking died. When I watched the first season air I was like, "Oh my god, this character is me, and I relate so fucking hard," and I've managed to be on that train pretty much straight through until THIS. Like. If, say, Q did not kill himself and really did sacrifice himself, the OG Penny & Q stuff is good. Or, at least, emotionally moving. If he did? Wow, way to make suicide seem like the way to go, guys.

I've been watching it from the beginning with my roommate, and we're in season two after Alice niffins and Q decides he wants to quit using magic and, you know, everything is Dark, and I'm really tempted to just be like, "So, we're actually not watching this show anymore, what with the intense queerbaiting that's going to happen and the fact that they killed off the mentally ill character in a way that had him questioning whether he killed himself, and then taking away from any and all redeeming qualities of his death. Have I made you watch The Expanse yet?"

Also the removal of Julia's agency, and Kady's accomplishments of UNITING A DISPARATE PEOPLE being minimized, and Quentin & Eliot never getting to speak, and everyone but Julia seeming to be fine post-A-Ha wacko singalong.

[cathyw]

and they... didn't need to remove Julia's agency? Penny could have, I don't know, gone into her head?

[anoyo]

RIGHT?

[cathyw]

I've been talking this show up to my family since I started watching it. They've watched the last few episodes with me, but didn't have any context for why I was a mess of emotions for several days after the episode aired... I honestly had a meltdown.

So when they asked, "Hey, do you want to start the show from the beginning?" I just... couldn't.

My feelings are still complicated.

And I am still amazed and awestruck by Arjun Gupta staying on Twitter basically all night when it aired talking to fans.

And the longer it goes without any comment from Sera Gamble or John Macnamara the more I think they're spinning instead of learning and just. ugh.

[cathyw]

yup, they were spinning.

[grimweather]

Very well said. I keep hoping they’ll make a fix somehow, but I’m fairly certain they’re planning to dig their heels in (especially after reading their statements today). And I can’t help but feel that a fix would feel cheap, after all this.

Quentin leaving the show feels like a bad choice regardless but the part I keep going back to is the scene where Quentin questions whether he did something brave or finally found a way to kill himself. It just makes everything (including the showrunners’ post-finale interviews) feel a lot less clueless (which, I mean, they still are) and a lot more cruel. It just rings so *true* to my own experience/struggle. Honestly I feel like if that scene hadn’t been included, I would not have taken this so hard! (I would’ve been gutted regardless but probably not this much.)

I sort of worry that Sera/John/etc. will write off the backlash as, I don’t know, overdramatic Queliot stans, and not really listen to the very real, deep hurt that many of us are feeling.