seperis | the magicians is coming!

For those wondering: cookies were made!

For those that weren't wondering or even knew this was a subject (everyone): The Magicians. We're a month away from season four and it's time to navel gaze. Not much though, as I'm still recovering from Eliot's latest pic of looking like an ironically emo heroin addicted hipster. His eyeliner alone....

Right. If you have not seen it, it's on Netflix and you really need to see it.

Short version: first seven episodes, you may get into it despite this or hate it because of these two things (probably other stuff, but these were my "if Eliot wasn't so hot I'd be out of here...Eliot's breathing again nm". No spoilers but food for thought if you go.

1.) You're going to keep getting distracted by obvious plotholes.

They aren't plotholes.

2.) You feel like you missed some crucial scenes that should connect some of this.

You didn't; see 1.

It still is pathetically a shock to me for a show--ANY SHOW--to have not 'plotline involving serious mental illness let us discuss for forty five minutes and forget' but "show in which mental illness is part of life and weaves in and out of the plot but never actually goes away and will be back". It has all the shitty ways you cope and all the ways it fucks you up and how you don't get over it you just live with it and sometimes it's better and sometimes its worse and sometimes it's almost like it's not even there and sometimes you're know you're about one bad morning from jumping off a bridge.

I'm not arguing this is the best handling of mental illness in episodic TV because I'm honestly not sure if any other show' done this. It created multiple characters with mental illness who react differently and on a range of coping/not coping/feeling even if they have the same type of mental illness. Like maybe each person is differnet? So how they experience and cope is different? YOU DON'T SAY?

First season involves one incident of rape. It's not graphic, but its upsetting as fuck. The show goes out of its way to strip out any hint that this is anything other than horrific and follows up with the physical and emotional aftermath without blinking. This will also be a continuing plotline including the character's ongoing PTSD and depression as a result.

It does not forward any man's plotline, it is not an excuse for personal growth or finding yourself, and it's the catalyst for things to really get shitty.

ETA: Comments include more of trigger above.

I have not gotten past Season 2, because I binged and then got distracted and never resumed. But! I did very much screenshot a lot of Eliot in the first season, and I love him to absolute bits.

I mean, the show had me at "Harry Potter and Narnia but also grad school" but the way it deals with queerness and mental health and violence is absolutely shockingly good.

ETA: The rape storyline was just... I couldn't believe that was actually on my TV.

edited at: Date: 2018-12-21 06:23 am (UTC)

It really has no right to be as good as it is considering those roots, and yet I think it may be one of the best representations of living with mental illness on TV if not the only simply on the strength of sheer variety. Two to four major depression, PTSD, adult survivors of child abuse, drug abuse, alcohol abuse....

It's like the opposite of a gotcha; the show normally and casually put out all these elements for us to see and then--completely shocking us--addressed them and then--didn't vanish them after dealing with them because 'dealing with them' is a process and it just kept on keeping on.

And--I honestly love this--the sheer lack of judgment on how people cope, the fear but also the helplessness and understanding that the shitty coping is a symptom of a much worse problem. Margo's breakdown about Eliot in season one? Yes, alcoholism and drug use are in fact Eliot's attempt at slow suicide but they're also probably the only thing stopping him from a faster version because the underlying problem is worse so what the hell can you do?

Yes to all of that.

I also very much appreciate that it doesn't take shiny-happy well-adjusted people who are then traumatised by their adventures? More or less it has people who are already variously fucked-up and then having experiences which are sometimes healing, sometimes not, because such is life. As someone stuck in grad school for nearly a decade I also feel very seen because of all the depressed, anxious, generally messed in the head grad students, including the successful, high-functioning ones.

And just the intense and entangled relationships all of them have. ♥

I also very much appreciate that it doesn't take shiny-happy well-adjusted people who are then traumatised by their adventures? More or less it has people who are already variously fucked-up and then having experiences which are sometimes healing, sometimes not, because such is life. As someone stuck in grad school for nearly a decade I also feel very seen because of all the depressed, anxious, generally messed in the head grad students, including the successful, high-functioning ones.

You nailed it.

♥

All their tangled-up friendships, augh my poor queer heart.

As someone stuck in grad school for nearly a decade I also feel very seen because of all the depressed, anxious, generally messed in the head grad students

YES

Also what I noticed from early on was, wow, this show does pretty good re diversity most of the time, and there are a LOT of good parts for women. Even the Faerie Queen got good in the end. (Margo/FQ frenemies femslash, where is it, give it to me.) The one main female character who really tanked for me was Not Charlie Bradbury, which is a pretty amazing ratio for today's genre type shows.

Yes. Thank you for this. I am now going to rewatch it and think in terms of this -- because I came into this fandom without thinking about how horribly hard grad school was (and it was hard, but it was years ago and the years make me forget a bit.)

The rape storyline was just... I couldn't believe that was actually on my TV.

That scene...most--and I can guess why--realllly want to emphasize the casual male power of it, the lazy unzipping jeans with an evil smile, the helplessness and degradation of the woman struggling (sexily) to get away. This didn't just reframe it, it revealed what it really is; that's not a male exercising power, it's a rabid animal that needs to be put the fuck down.

The camera work--her trying to get away, her horror, and her just trying to get through it, but it doesn't stare at her. It cuts away, it lets her hide her face, it gives her protection. It's not letting us off the hook--if we're going to witness this, we aren't going to be coddled, she's suffering and yes, we have to see it.

But at her rapist: it's glaring at him flat in the face with utter revulsion.

The position for this--fuck me this is gross--does double duty for that too. It doesn't just emphasize the animalistic component; it gives Julia at least that much privacy, from him and from the camera. She doesn't have to look at him and he can't take any satisfaction in seeing her pain, but his grossness is on full display. It's not only 'you cannot mistake this for anything but rape' but also 'and you cannot possibly miss a rapist is nothing more than an animal'.

This is excellent analysis. I expected to be really triggered by the rape scene (I hated it in the books) and was surprised when I wasn't. But of course, yeah, they really did not frame it as sexualized at all, and all the focus was on her experience and viewpoint, not the "lazy unzipping jeans with an evil smile" (which is an amazing way to put it). From what I remember it really is not a terribly male-gazey show.

From what I remember it really is not a terribly male-gazey show.

You're right about the lack of male-gaze, which makes me think how much that goes hand in hand with comfort in women's sexuality and sexual expression. It also doesn't try and link 'sexual activity' to 'hyper-provocative'; Kady and Penny were the first to hook up, and wasn't she wearing combat boots and her hair was in that 'fuck it, just didn't care this morning' look we all know and love?

I mean, not saying all the women aren't beautiful, but even in clothing they're intensely individual and not 'individual sexxxxxxy'. Even Margot's more provocative choices are explicitly about how much she likes her body in them, not how much she wants others to like it. (Explicitly, see 'golem' where she ponders her own ass in approval.)

THAT WAS THE BEST YES. Margo looks amazing -- the costumes for the show are generally great. And not just the opulent royal stuff either. The little actress who plays Alice is kind of, well, buxom, and yet I think all of her outfits are flattering but not "here are my tits, the producers thought you should be thinking about them in all my scenes."

Kady and Penny are my heart's OTP. I love how they were all "we're just banging, we're so cynical, love is for children, we know the rules of the game" and underneath they would just do anything for each other. Really the show has a lot of setups that are so poorly done a lot of the time -- Quentin and Julia, Eliot and Margo, Fen and Eliot -- and makes them work. (I am really not sold on Quentin and Alice. ~~BECAUSE QUENTIN/ELIOT~~)

Alice, yes! And yeah, she's definitely buxom but it's not something you really get much of a chance to pay attention to because she dresses to be left alone--not be invisible but avoid focus--and backs it up with hostility. Even when you said that, I had to think to remember she's very curvy, because her outfits are high necked or very angular and precise (straight A-line skirts, ruthlessly straight hair, stiff movements, her ultra-straight back, her pitiless marching walk) that she gives a hard impression of long and lean and she's--not.

Kady and Penny are my heart's OTP. I love how they were all "we're just banging, we're so cynical, love is for children, we know the rules of the game" and underneath they would just do anything for each other. Really the show has a lot of setups that are so poorly done a lot of the time -- Quentin and Julia, Eliot and Margo, Fen and Eliot -- and makes them work. (I am really not sold on Quentin and Alice. BECAUSE QUENTIN/ELIOT)

Quentin/Eliot/(Margot) - I mean, yes I do Quentin/Eliot all the time (All. The. Time) but it's actually difficult to me not to see Margot around in at least a semi-committed capacity (with medium-term secondaries and casuals).

I have so many feelings on this and I never thought I would go this hard on an OT3 to want to do defenses, but this is my world now. Eliot and Margo are so intensely committed to each other that the only space anyone would have with either of them is romantic/sexual (aka the 'hot' part of a relationship) and I just can't see anyone able to deal with being a very distant secondary to that in the long term.

Except Quentin, who they both bonded to ultra-fast, so he'd never be 'outside' anything and like, they buy a glorious condo and sometimes Margot lives part time with her secondary but not so often the kids don't feel stable and loved because work from home Daddy Eliot thought alll this shit out before the commitment ceremony including regular relationship check-ins and mandatory date nights and frequent weekend getaways as they both know Quentin needs regular attention and explicit reassurance from both of them both together and separately, Margot needs to know they're all still first in each others lives, Eliot needs a strong, stable, loving family around him....yeah, what were we talking about?

Quentin/Eliot/(Margot) - I mean, yes I do Quentin/Eliot all the time (All. The. Time) but it's actually difficult to me not to see Margot around in at least a semi-committed capacity (with medium-term secondaries and casuals).

I have so many feelings on this and I never thought I would go this hard on an OT3 to want to do defenses, but this is my world now. Eliot and Margo are so intensely committed to each other that the only space anyone would have with either of them is romantic/sexual (aka the 'hot' part of a relationship) and I just can't see anyone able to deal with being a very distant secondary to that in the long term.

Except Quentin, who they both bonded to ultra-fast, so he'd never be 'outside' anything and like, they buy a glorious condo and sometimes Margot lives part time with her secondary but not so often the kids don't feel stable and loved because work from home Daddy Eliot thought alll this shit out before the commitment ceremony including regular relationship check-ins and mandatory date nights and frequent weekend getaways as they both know Quentin needs regular attention and explicit reassurance from both of them both together and separately, Margot needs to know they're all still first in each others lives, Eliot needs a strong, stable, loving family around him....yeah, what were we talking about?

Yes to all of this! Have you seen the OT3 After the Storm vid by Trelkez? - https://archiveofourown.org/works/16503695 - because it perfectly encapsulated my love for Margot/Eliot/Quentin. So good.

That broke my heart and put it back together again. Beautiful.

she dresses to be left alone--not be invisible but avoid focus--and backs it up with hostility. Even when you said that, I had to think to remember she's very curvy, because her outfits are high necked or very angular and precise (straight A-line skirts, ruthlessly straight hair, stiff movements, her ultra-straight back, her pitiless marching walk) that she gives a hard impression of long and lean and she's--not.

I LOVE your description of Alice, yes. She is so tiny and fighty! I loved how she sort of came to life, but I also loved her in early S1 as the kind of icy (heh) shy girl who was so much better than everyone else but she didn't want to stand out but she also knew she was Best. She was very armoured. And I love book Alice when she has that devastating monologue about being a niffin and "I was laughing and pitiless" but you can feel all the pain in her words, and "I lost everything, twice. The first time I gave it up. But the second time you stole it." WHAM. (I was so annoyed we didn't get that in the show. But show Alice and book Alice are pretty different anyway.)

Eliot and Margo are so intensely committed to each other that the only space anyone would have with either of them is romantic/sexual (aka the 'hot' part of a relationship) and I just can't see anyone able to deal with being a very distant secondary to that in the long term.
Except Quentin, who they both bonded to ultra-fast, so he'd never be 'outside' anything

I CAN TOTALLY SEE THIS. Besides Eliot just kind of goes all mushy when he looks at Quentin (he's so fucking adorable). Margo would snap him out of his depressions and be a kind of abrasive person in his life, like Penny. And I love that Margo/Eliot is like the really stable OTP of the show, and that's two bisexual people in a really rock solid queerplatonic type life partnership (but they also like hot sex!). You KNOW they are always going to be there for each other, and it's totally not the Will & Grace cliche. Also HFS Hale Appleman is GORGEOUS

EVERYTHING you said. Especially Alice: her entire wardrobe and body language literally overwrite her to me visually. Even though I know differnetly, I think of her as tall, thin, very straight up-and-down, very stiff and--yeah, no. It's weird when I see the cast photos or whatever and am like "wait a minute...."

And I love that Margo/Eliot is like the really stable OTP of the show, and that's two bisexual people in a really rock solid queerplatonic type life partnership (but they also like hot sex!). You KNOW they are always going to be there for each other, and it's totally not the Will & Grace cliche.

God, this. No goddamn female-bff-totally-secretly-hoping-for-gay-male-bff-to-be-straight bullshit, but actual bffs who love each other intensely and platonically. The fact they've had sex (and i do think they probably have had sex without a third party at least once or twice) underlines how very much sex has nothing to do with love or their relationship.

It's so unflinching I found it both easier and harder to watch than I usually do rape scenes. Usually I struggle whether they go the titillation or the torture route, but the camera work was very very careful in that it skated right on the edge of unbearable, and as you say allowed Julia her valour and her dignity through it.

I... want to say Black Sails did as good a job re: sexual violence, but I'm not entirely sure. And of course Julia's isn't the only case of sexual abuse/violence in the show and as with the rest of it, the proliferation(?) helps.

It's so unflinching I found it both easier and harder to watch than I usually do rape scenes. Usually I struggle whether they go the titillation or the torture route, but the camera work was very very careful in that it skated right on the edge of unbearable, and as you say allowed Julia her valour and her dignity through it.

Unflinching--yes, that's the word, and I think that was aimed at the viewer. We were supposed to watch the event and understand it and feel it, but it wasn't going to let us gawk at her. And I can't believe I am earnestly arguing the camera had a point of view and feelings but here we are.

And I can't believe I am earnestly arguing the camera had a point of view and feelings but here we are.

Cameras absolutely do, though; otherwise interpellation wouldn't work. And in this show the camera is very good about what feelings and perspectives it prefers and allows in the audience. You can of course read against the grain, but it's a rare show where marginalised people don't have to, y'know? I can feel a rewatch coming on.

Oh I think that totally makes sense -- even if the camera is just a tool and doesn't have feelings, the people looking through it and setting up the shows and staging the scenes and writing the dialogue do, and I think those scenes were so striking because they way they were set up and filmed were so different from how we typically see rape on TV.

I read the books and kinda loathed Quentin but fell in love with Alice and Julia and Plum, so I was totally delighted the show focused more on their stories, especially Julia's, and we got a really sympathetic and sweet (and BI) Quentin. Not to mention, PENNY and OMG Eliot. And High King Margo! Warrior Kady!

ITA with the portrayals of damage and depression and traumatic backgrounds and how people cope with them (badly) and the "intense and entangled relationships." The show went a bit off the rails for me last season, but when they all had to sing "Under Pressure," OMG, that was the show I fell in love with.

Under Pressure was just amazing. And everything you said, yes.

My favorite Margo moment was when they were soft-shoeing around during the ship sex thing and she cuts straight through with "That sounds like PTSD...wait, that's rape" and everyone (male) is just deeply uncomfortable she's calling it what it is.

And then she goes and talks to the ship because yes, the needs of the many but she's not ordering someone to let themselves be raped. And this ship? Is not a thing. It's someone.

I love Margo.

And then she goes and talks to the ship because yes, the needs of the many but she's not ordering someone to let themselves be raped. And this ship? Is not a thing. It's someone.

THAT WAS SO AMAZING. Margo is such a protector, more than any of the guys in the show -- she fucks up big time (they all do) but if she's on your side, the other side better just lie down and give up. That actress does such an amazing job -- they all do. (I saw some behind the scenes footage, and Arjun Gupta is so easygoing and smiley! and HANDSY WITH JASON RALPH, OMG.)

"Bowie fan?" "Margo fan!"

Best. Thing. Ever.

Though I will never get over the fate of a kingdom rested on Margot's discussion with a literal bear about his relationship with his human girlfriend.

I mean, think about it; she got the vote of all the talking animals on the hot button issue of talking animals banging humans.

Which implies the talking animal world were cross-species discussing this issue like, a lot. Not like one or two outliers; there are enough talking animal/human relationshisp in existence at this time for this to be a critical issue in the community.

There were meetings in the forest. There are probably support groups for families torn apart by this. Somehwere--and I want to see this--a talking badger's human boyfriend tearfully gave testimonials on how his parents wouldn't accept their relationship to an audience of woodland creatures and how this had to change. A talking lion probably moderated.

The talking animal population outnumbers the human by a sizeable margin, so math states for this to be a talking animal wide social issue to be solved enough for unanimous voting for Margo the Pro Bestiality Candidate, we need at least three to five percent of talking animals to be involved with or were involved with or want to be involved with a human and that's really lowballing it and I'd personally go with a minimum of ten percent to get these kinds of results and probably higher.

Yet Fillory was surprised this happened? Like, how could no one at least wonder why so many people (I cant' remember Fillory's human population, but we're talking significant number in any given area) are 'going to gather berries in the forest' and came back a week later in a super good mood with suspicious amounts of scratching, no berries, and are like "couldn't find anything, it was great, gonna sleep for a week"? Or abruptly became super vegan after a 'walk in the woods'?

Suffice to say, I have thought a bit about this.

I'm reading this post and these comments going, 'This sounds amazing, I will really have to watch this show,' then I got to this comment and nearly got whiplash. Wait, wtf? This is on TV? Human/talking animal relationships? … how is fandom not screaming deliriously about this?

It is a REALLY GOOD show. It got promoted kind of as a "Whoo sexy magic college paranormal!" CW show, which it really isn't. The actors are all amazing, the writing is generally good, and it's really funny while also heartbreaking. The quality of the eps can vary dramatically, but when it's good it's fantastic.

Seriously, you would not know from the set up or first maybe eight episodes how much this is not going to go where you expect, and it will keep doing that. And there are bad episodes, stupid episodes, ridic relationship plotlines--but they all build toward some of the best episodes you will literally watch again and again; it really is worth the payoff.

I mean, yes, everyone is subverting/grittifying fantasy, but this is less 'let me show you the REAL GRITTY FAIRY TALE TRUTH PLEBS' but more Naomi Novik saying "let me show you the Napoleonic Wars BUT WITH DRAGONS!!!!!'.

Because what's cooler than Napoleonic Wars? Adding dragons! What's cooler than a Narnia and Harry Potter crossover? HARRY POTTER GRADUATE SCHOOL VISITING NARNIA!!

And when I say Narnia? We're talking playing 'pick me!' through all seven books of cool stuff. I mean, I almost want to read the books this is based on because there's a real sense of "NARNIA HAD SO MANY SHINY TOYS I WANT TO PLAY WITH OH MY GOD THIS IS GREAT NOW I AM ADDING SOME GREEK SHIT WHEEEEEEE" and not "LET ME SHOW YOU THE DARK TRUTH OF WHAT NARNIA AND HARRY POTTER WOULD BE REALISTICALLY FOR LEWIS WAS NOT AS DEEP AS ME AND ROWLING WAS A HACK."

Yeah, there's bad but whatever, the payoff is unreal. And sometimes you end up at forever parties with Dionysus doing jello shots and dropping acid, you just never know.

....this sounds like the outline for a GREAT fic.

I continue to be so impressed with the interpersonal dynamics writ large, I just—have. so. many. feelings. About how queer friendship and queer love works on this show, I just!!!

have to put them somewhere so I put them into fanfic

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yes! Also just Margo&Eliot, could have been so cliche and instead they're just amazing.

off to read your fic!

I love this show but man, A Day in A Life ,ade me love it even more. A few tears were shed tbh Also, when I feel down, one of my go-to vids is Eliot & Margo talking in pop culture references:

Eliot: So, we have to keep it very best episode of "Buffy".
Margo: Musical?
Eliot: The other one.

Of course, it's Hush lol

Season 4 already?? Gah, I'm so behind. I mean TECHNICALLY I have yet to watch even season 1, but I had definitely MEANT to after everyone started posting gifs on Tumblr earlier this year.

However, I did NOT like the books, despite reading all three. I didn't like most of the characters and I particularly didn't like Quentin, and the rape/child abuse/torture plot points weren't all that lovely, either. I'm guessing a lot of the plot is in the TV show (based on your spoilers), but are the characters much the same? Better? Worse?

I havent read the books, but consensus so far is the characters seem better. And on Quentin specifically--this comes up a lot--from my dash and chats, a lot of people who HATED him in the books usually are minimum 'toleraant liking' to 'I LOVE QUENTIN'.

I love Quentin, and I say this knowing objectively he's a mess and sometimes whines and has some entitlement at times, but--and this is important--the show really doesn't let him off the hook. He's growing into someone extraordinary on sheer brute effort. The differnce between early first season Quentin and end of season one/beginning of season two Quentin is huge, but nothing like what he is at the end of season three and the decision he makes.

Or: the differnee between the guy who despareately wants to do the glorious self-sacrifice to a GLORIOUS GOOD because HE IS THE HERO OF THIS STORY...and the guy who wants to quietly sacrifice himself to something mundanely miserable and thankless and probably a good chunk of forever doing a very unpleasant task so no one else has to. I actually think I fell in love with him for that, because that is NOT the kind of glorious sacrifice you write stories about and the personal cost is so goddamn much higher.

on Quentin specifically--this comes up a lot--from my dash and chats, a lot of people who HATED him in the books usually are minimum 'toleraant liking' to 'I LOVE QUENTIN'.

LOL that would be me. I LOATHED Quentin for most of the books, but the clear-eyed writing and especially Jason Ralph's acting make him so much better.

I have to admit, Jason's hair probably deserves credit, as Quentin uses it to hide behind or push back and it makes him about ten times more sympathetic and adorable. He can be totally in the wrong but the duck head-hair goes forward-looks out-pushes it back makes me melt.

The difference between the characters and the books is REALLY BIG, especially for Penny, Quentin, and Janet who is basically Margo in the show. Julia, Alice and Eliot are pretty close to the originals, except for some plot shenanigans, and there are a few TV-only characters who are really good too. The show is much more focused on the entire ensemble of actors -- who are all great -- and they all have interesting relationships with each other. I really disliked Quentin for most of the books (he got somewhat better in the last one) and he's much much better in the show. The show is also much funnier than the books -- it owes a lot to Buffy, but not in a slavish way. The show is much crackier and funnier and light-hearted but also deeper in a lot of ways than the books. It's also much, much better at the female characters.

Well, hey! That's really good to know, and now I feel way more interested in watching the show than before. Thanks so much!

Oh my, I love The Magicians, but is there a trigger the show leaves unchecked, honestly?

Nope, it does not.

Hi! I friended you because I need to talk to more people about this show. It's a show that I deeply love and admire and enjoy, despite the fact that I keep taking prolonged breaks from it every time they kill an animal horribly and/or for shock value. (Seriously, cancer puppy and the rabbit were more than enough, but they keep. On. Doing it.)

At the moment, I'm stalled out in S3 because of Yet Another animal death, but I love the show and the characters so much that I do want to go back to it. Kady/Julia is my happy place, but I also have a big thing for Margo/Julia. And Kady/Penny. And Penny/Quentin. And Eliot/anyone.

Does this mean you're going to write magicians fic???

OMG, is season four really only a month away!!??!! Eeeeeeeep!

I love this show SO MUCH. I really have nothing else to add here other than unbridled enthusiasm. :)

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