i'd like to point out first, my del.icio.us tags include amtdi and non-con

You know, I thought I talked myself down off this one, because frankly, Twilight is not great literature and mounting a defense takes up valuable time reading non-con amtdi porn.

But you know, I just feel that inspired, plus I ran out of Dean/Castiel reading and my son still has Twilight in his locker. Go figure.

I have to know something; did I miss the memo that I'm supposed to be ashamed of being twelve? My apologies; see, when I was twelve? I never really considered to form my actions to meet an arbitrary standard that would come into existence twenty years later on my reading habits, because that? Would have totally pulled the Gor novels right out of my hot little hands.

As in, please to be putting down your AMTDI non-con for a second while ranting on how Twilight is ruining young girls. I will totally be there when fandom as a whole stops finding aliens made them do it rape as a fun and lighthearted fanfic pasttime. I mean, I will be there, but I'll still be writing it. Hell, throw in eroticized slave-fic with idealized sexual slavery and falling in love with your enslaver controlling boyfriend who stalks you...wait.

Writer responsibility comes up a lot with this, which I suppose is fair when one is writing cross-alien-species sexual hijinks and one is struggling to portray those sensitivity, or the reality of slave trafficking in the modern world, or hell, magical healing cock after rape and lets toss in mpreg for kicks, because there's a genre that's incredibly sensitive and socially conscious. I have zero interest in writer responsibility, to be honest, except for one key points--did they tell a story? That's it; that's where it starts and stops, with some codicils of audience. Twilight was readable to a huge group of people.

Maybe the mystery is the plotline? Because I agree; I cannot imagine why anyone would enjoy a fantasy novel about two people obsessively in love with each other and would do anything to be together.

You may pile your under the bed romance novels over to the left, please; lets do this right. Let's blackball the entire romance novel industry already. I want petitions against VC Andrews, Johanna Lindsay, Judith McNaught, Catherine Coulter, Virginia Henley (Okay, I could stand to lose her), and anything set in Viking England with a wee Saxon lass.

Seriously. I get hating them for being bad, as beauty is in the eye of the beholder; shaming young girls for something they've found to love is edging right into the reason I'm trying to stop myself from ever using the term "Like a twelve year old girl" again in any slash fic I write. Which will probably be something I'll have to pick up on beta because comparisons to teenage girls as insults to men is surprisingly common.

Please lay off the girls. And remind me again how Seeds of Yesterday ended. For the life of me, I couldn't find it with my other VC Andrews work.

Comments

[cjandre.livejournal.com]

Ummmm... Okay, I feel completely out of it. However, I picked up and read Twilight a few months ago, and enjoyed it. I didn't know anything about the fandom, or the background, I still have no idea what is going on with the LDS references? WTF?

I read it. It was fun. It had plot holes, but honestly not any bigger than in Harry Potter. It had a female main character that I probably would have been friends with in school - I was a rather overly dramatic teen, and even young adult - and there were "vegetarian" vamps and guardian werewolves! Yay!

What can I say? I chewed the bubblegum and enjoyed it.

The stalking thing? Came under the heading of vampire, in my mind, and most of the violence came under the heading of supernatural shit.

I honestly didn't even notice anyone saying Bella had to stay a virgin, and I remembered the difficulties of balancing a boyfriend and friends - a problem that haunted me right through my marriage and last boy friend. Seeing as how Twilight involved vampires and werewolves, I figured Bella's problems in this area was a bit exagerrated.

As a parent, well, my daughter hasn't read the book, mostly because she hates to read novels - but we did go and see the movie today. She's 11 and hid her face at even the vaguest hint of romance. All she wanted to see were the fight scenes.

:-)

But, while we have not had big discussions about stalkery behavior and choices about when to have sex in relation to Twilight, The Girl is a HUGE Buffy fan, and we have had many discussions on these topics in relation to Buffy and Angel. (She is allowed to get a new season for each birthday. We are up to season four.) Most of the time she rolls her eyes and reminds me that the show is a fantasy.

:-)

I would love it if Twilight made her read a novel. She adores manga and short ghost stories, but doesn't like novels.

And of course manga - you know there's no issues on the images of girls in manga. *snicker*

So of course we talk about it.

She rolls her eyes some more, often telling me all the little points about abusive characters, bad choices, good choices, and "what would I do in a similar situation."

Maybe I'm complacent, but I don't think so. I just don't think that there is that much to get worried about with this book.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

My love for you is epic.

[cjandre.livejournal.com]

Seriously, the whole big debate about Edward being the perfect boyfriend... if it is actually a debate... hinges upon the idea that he's a VAMPIRE with PSYCHIC POWERS. The reason teen girls fantasize about vampires with psychic powers as the perfect boyfriend is exactly because they don't KNOW any, and deep down they know there aren't any. The few individuals who grow up to take things to obsessive extremes and have their teeth re-done into fangs, would be choosing some other obsession if they didn't have vampires to think about.

In any case, the powerful, rich, obsessed, rather stalker- like behavior of Edward is firmly based in a rich cultural tradition. I was introduced to this archtype in highschool reading Pride and Prejudice.

Hello, Mr. Darcy.

:-)

[cjandre.livejournal.com]

I just had to update you on this conversation with The Girl this morning:

Responsible Mommy: Oh, look iTunes has the Twilight soundtrack for sale.

The Girl: I want it! Can I get it for Christmas?

Responsible Mommy: Maybe, we'll see. You could always buy it with some of your Christmas money if you want it that badly... So, what exactly did you like so much about Twilight? (Please note smooth transition to the topic of the story as opposed to the music... uh-huh. Smooth.)

The Girl: Everything! (insert pre-teen squeal)

Responsible Mommy: Well, you didn't like the romance that much, you could hardly watch the romantic scenes!

The Girl: Well, that's just because it was the first time I saw it! I'll get used to the romance stuff when I watch it again. I want to see it again. I hope the DVD comes out soon.

Responsible Mommy: (takes a deep breath, already strategizing how to discuss the overly controlling, possessive behaviors of Edward and set them in a healthy, critical context.) You know, Edward's behavior is kind of screwed up, don't you think?

The Girl: You mean the stalking and stuff? Oh, yeah! But that's why he's a vampire! (The look on her face is a combination of "Well, DUH, Mom!" and the standard eye roll.)



What can I say - I shall sleep well tonight, knowing that so far, The Girl can tell fantasy from reality.



:-)

[digitalmeowmix2.livejournal.com]

YES THANK YOU

It's a silly book series and a silly movie with some problematic subtext/text. Hmmmm... kinda sounds like most fannish things! SPN anyone? (I am a fan).

A bad tween fantasy/romance novel will not cause all teen girls to deny feminism.If you are concerned about the messages it sends, TALK TO YOUR KIDS(GIRLS) about the difference between healthy and abusive relationships.

Also, fandom complaining it's badly written is hilarious( but VERY TRUE), because seriously with the amount of badfic we produce? And the crappy TV we watch? I like SGA, but it's not masterpiece theatre

I saw the movie last night,it was fun and kinda cute in parts, bad acting and all. Great music and pretty actors though.

I am trying not to be ashamed for liking it.(mostly for the Cullen family) but its hard.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

YES! A CIGAR IS A CIGAR!

I'm far more terrified by adult women embracing these books as healthy relationships, to be honest. Teens? It's their right and obligation to be clinically insane.

[digitalmeowmix2.livejournal.com]

What's also creepy is the hate of Meyer as a person,not just as a writer.EX:Capslock rants about wanting to beat her over the head with her own books etc.(This shit has been said by normally mature people that know the "Don't like don't read "rule)

Because if somebody sucks at writing , violence is the answer.

I have never hated a piece of media enough to want to hurt the creator, take a chill pill people.

And that she's a "fat crazy Mormon bitch" (not heard but probably said)

I keep seeing an icon that says "Die in a fire, Stephanie Meyer".
Its the same shit Rowling had to deal with, Entitled misogny and
also hypocritical irony ,How dare that crazy bitch being so unfeminst right?

[samdonne.livejournal.com]

I don't know anything about Twilight or Stephanie Meyers, and I gather I wouldn't want to. I can only speak generally to a couple of points in the thread about fantasy, parenting, and a child's moral development.

A healthy fantasy life is essential to moral development; morally-stunted individuals (like psychopaths) tend to have a very poor (or one-track) imaginary life. Moral intuitions are triggered by moral emotions, rarely moral reasoning (unless you're a trained philosopher), which is why we teach moral rules through storytelling, or search for the origins of morality using thought and scenario-based experiments, or empathize with known individuals better than abstract groups, or worry so much about what the kids are reading and who they're hanging out with.

When in doubt, we make sense of our moral intuitions and work out what behavioral rules derive from them by bouncing them off our friends and relatives.

Kids can't make sense of moral intuitions on their own. Those who are forced to do so don't fare well on the mental-health scale later on. There is no moral development in a social vacuum.

So between censorship and leaving well enough alone, I stand firmly on middle-ground. Give them access to material, but don't let them deal with it alone. They can't. Their brains aren't equipped. Some neuroscientific evidence suggests that the brain-formation process continues into an individual's early twenties (explains so much about those undergrad years, doesn't it? ;), and even as adults we keep figuring what to do by bouncing stuff off each other (example: this thread).

So shaming the girls (or individuals of any constitution), I think not. But declaring their fantasy life off-limits, I don't think so, either. Engaging with them is a good thing. Between the so-called sanctity of anyone's fantasy life, and life-long mental and social health, I'd choose the latter.

That's my moral intuition, anyway. What's yours?

[seperis.livejournal.com]

I'm on board with discussion, but I say that easily because so far it works extremely well with Child (ask me one day about the day the Palestinian speaker came to Child's social studies class and reading/blank scrabbling for further information thereafter), but the shame and mockery components are what are irritating me about the entire mess. Parental duty should require knowing what the child is reading; this is why God created allowances, receipts, and doors without locks. But restriction, mockery, and making it difficult to explore those concepts aren't discussion, and overreaction to concepts found in fiction aren't those things either. Current hysteria regarding the books is the problem, not the books themselves.

I don't see how any child can be overly influence by teen romance unless the parents are literally not in attendance on their lives. Equating a romance novel with a life changing religious experience isn't acceptable on any level; Twilight is not that good and this is not The Yellow King. So it comes back to my original point--leave the girls alone to explore and answer their questions as they come up. Or you know, read what they do, which is why I had to read my way through more books on reptiles than I wish I knew existed and The Watchmen, despite the fact I am not a huge fan of the graphic novel format.

[samdonne.livejournal.com]

Okay with everything, except I don't know what "The Yellow King" is. And I'd leave the girls alone...to a point.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Neither did I and I thought I knew my Lovecraftian writers (I do not remember the author's name off the top of my head). The Yellow King was a play where everyone who saw it committed suicide due to something in the play. It's on my post-Christmas reading list, because this, this is a moment of shame, so I won't have better detail until I've read it. I blame synecdochic for reminding me how much I love when fanfic fuses to Lovecraft and company.

[cjandre.livejournal.com]

I agree, mostly. I think the key is conversation and guidelines over censorship. Nothing is banned in our house (at least nothing that has come up SO FAR. Knock wood.) but several things have an age barrier. My daughter is 11 and knows that she is not allowed to read "Mature" manga until she is sixteen. And she knows why. And she chafes at this, but would rather read some manga online than none, and so we come to an agreement.

:-)

Her fantasy life is pretty much off-limits because I can't get inside her head, but what FEEDS that fantasy life is well monitored, discussed, and placed in context. An example is in the comments just above this.

What I try not to do, is judge her on the quality of what she likes - and let me tell you, that is REALLY difficult when she is watching Hannah Montana re-runs. *shudder*

I would WAY prefer Twilight over Hannah Montana.

;-)

[seperis.livejournal.com]

I love Hanna Montana! I watch with my niece. I am not reconciled to Bratz at all, but for a kid's show, that one works for me, at least of the few episodes I've seen of it so far. Better by far than the Britney Spears' sister's show or some of the other kid and tween tv. *shudders*

[cjandre.livejournal.com]

Hannah Montana makes my brains run out my ears. And yet I do not ban it. *I* am the ultimate tolerant mother.

:-)

Although I do occasionally force her to change in the middle of an ep I know she has watched twenty times. I make her put on SciFi channel and we watch Dr. Who re-runs! Much better for one's moral fiber!

Yay Captain Jack!

:-D

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Child's love for Torchwood is epic. He's on me every day about when the new Dr. Who and the new Torchwood come out. Hey, have you tried her with Merlin yet? Thumbs up from the eleven year old male side, and I liked the pilot a *lot*. Also Sarah Jane Adventures if she hasn't seen them already. I can upload them for you if she hasn't seen them yet.

[cjandre.livejournal.com]

She loves the Sarah Jane Adventures. I haven't really tried her on Torchwood yet - it isn't on TV here, and she hates watching them while huddles around my computer screen. I'm think when she is a bit older they will make great Christmas presents on DVD. By then they will be cheap and she will be old enough to watch some of the really rather fucked up sexual antics on the show (and no, I don't mean Jack! LOL)

I have seen stuff about Merlin, but I've never seen it on TV - What channel is it on?

[seperis.livejournal.com]

It's BBC, so I don't know if it's on regular TV. I can upload the pilot, so email if you're interested and I'll send the link.

[weyrdchic.livejournal.com]

Completely avoiding all the wank elsewhere, and disclaiming that I've only read so far in the first book of Twilight and the rest I've gotten through summaries:

My problem with the series isn't that it's a fantasy, or a dark fantasy, or that it conveys some unhealthy behavior. I read and roleplay that all the time, I've always wanted to indulge in or at least laugh at some bodice-rippers. If you want to talk about bad influences, I watched South Park at age 12 and came away with little more than a filthy mouth and an advanced interest in politics just in time for the Bush administration. But none of what I've read, written, or watched has ever said 'this is the ideal to strive for,' not even Grand Theft Auto. And I look at the response to Twilight - not just the books in of themselves, but also the response - and see that the author AND a lot of the audience genuinely believe that these are expressions of true love. In reality. Without exception. If you try to suggest it otherwise, they will get furiously angry, they will draw back as if scalded or (I've heard this anecdotally) key your car.

I don't like the 'it sucks because it's popular' tack, but in this case I think it's what influences the concern. Twilight creates this mania that other romances haven't created since...basically ever. Lines a mile deep and near-rioting teenagers and people asking RPattz to bite them. Grown women who stalk the set and are encouraged to use a fictional character's engagement ring to show they're married. And everyone talking like it is the greatest work of literature to ever grace the universe. I have never seen a weirder response to a fandom. I remember being a young teen and feeling like everything was a matter of life or death, but I was never THAT emotionally volatile about it.

You're framing a lot as taste, from what I can tell, but I'm talking about people who say 'I want an Edward of my own.' It's not just teenagers, there's a lot of grown adults that think this is a sincere love story too. And I watch Edward's actions and think 'every single thing this person does is, down to the wording, the sign of someone who will be an abuser later in the relationship.' No, I don't think Twilight IS the problem, it's a symptom, but the symptoms can help define the problem sometimes. How do we judge history? From primary sources. We mock the 50s domestic ideal through its advertisements, and so on. And unchecked ('checked' meaning talking and analyzing and educating as to fantasy vs. reality), media still stirs up and influences - not necessarily in big actions, like everyone's going to throw themselves off a cliff after a breakup, but in things like people's instincts. If things like rape and suicide and spousal abuse weren't still a big problem due to people NOT being educated about their warning signs, I wouldn't be so worried.

[fickle-goddess.livejournal.com]

Generally speaking, I tend to fall on the "...Well, at least they're reading" side of this debate.

That said, I accidentally convinced my aunt to stop allowing my twelve-year-old cousin (how appropriate to this debate!) to read the books, insofar as she confiscated them and returned them. Accidentally, because I'd been talking to my aunt over lunch about how horrible they are, with emphasis on the OM NOM NOM I DELIVER BABY THIS WAY scene, and hadn't actually expected her to act on it.

Afterwards, I had to rethink the book I was about to give my cousin, since it involved falling into a world of rewritten fairy tales, and had one non-explicit scene where Little Red stalked and seduced the wolf, then lured in more women to lie with wolves -- and they all got eaten. I ended up unable to give it to her in good conscience in case it got confiscated as well.

Basically? If you start censoring reading material, fuck you. My mother refused to let me read Sweet Valley High and disapproved of Sweet Valley Twins, but let me tear through Greek Mythology at the age of six (which is full of incest, rape, bestiality, homosexuality, and other things my mother would not approve of). I read them anyway.

Do I think Twilight sucks? Definitely. Do I think it depicts healthy relationships? Nope. Would I want my twelve-year-old cousin reading it? No, but she's already an avid reader -- like me -- so for her, it's time wasted that could be spent reading something better. Like Discworld.

And ultimately, if I can't convince her to read something better, if I can't offer her alternatives that'll drag her in and make her forget that Twilight exists -- then yeah, let her read it. Because the other option is censoring the book by confiscating it, and speaking as a kid who had that happen to her a lot while growing up, it's as annoying as fuck and doesn't accomplish anything. If anything, forbidden fruit will only make it all the more appealing, and then your kid won't even discuss it with you and give you a chance to check she realizes that Stalking Is Not Cool.

[kickair8p.livejournal.com]

You started on the Gor novels at 12? I was thirteen before I did!

As for Twilight, I haven't read any of the books, haven't seen the movie yet, and won't till it comes out on DVD. So I haven't really gotten into any of the kerfluffle. I understand the concerns, but..... ::shrug::

~

Part one (Yeah, sorry)

[alias_sqbr]

Hi, here via ithiliana¹. I'm still figuring out exactly what I think on these topics so this isn't so much a strong disagreement as poking at your arguments to understand them better.

First off: 100% agreement that a lot of the Twilighter hate has an underlying misogyny which blames and shames young girls for the crime of letting their tastes be influenced by the sexist society they live in. Also, I don't think they should be forbidden from reading the books.

But I'm not sure it's always wrong to discourage them from reading them, or at least say "Read it if you like, but keep in mind that...".

Point 1) I think part of the problem here is that you're defending an imaginary 12 year old you, while I'm defending an imaginary 12 year old me. Young-you could deal with anything they read and would be distressed by being told her fantasies were bad, fair enough. I worked differently. If I have a daughter I will do what I feel is best for her, and depending on if she takes after me or not that may mean semi-restricting her reading. Given these differences I agree it's wrong to say ALL girls should be kept away from these books, but I also think it's wrong to decry individual parents making decisions you wouldn't for their children.

My first boyfriend at 17 was rather Edward-like ie a good-looking strong-and-silent emotionally abusive control freak². And I distinctly remember thinking "Romantic fiction lied to me, this sucks". I'm not saying any individual story is 100% responsible, but there have been many things I "learned" from their repeated use in fiction ie (up until recently) my (VERY DODGY) entire understanding of native american culture. I remember reading "The Horse and his boy" as a christian kid without much grounding in theology and thinking "This story has the moral that muslims are satanists. That seems kind of racist. But everyone says this is a good book and the author seems to know what he's talking about, if it was racist surely someone would have said something. Maybe Allah is evil but muslims are nice?". Similarly I started wondering if wearing pantyhose and lipstick was a sin. My mum would watch movies with me and point out all the classist etc bits while still leaving space for us to enjoy them which I think was the best approach for me. She didn't keep as close an eye on my reading and this didn't work out as well.

Point 2) I know vee_fic had a kind of similar argument above, but I don't agree with her take. Anyway: I realise that those of us who are squicked by non-con etc can just avoid it etc (esp in fan-fiction), and I have my own (to others disturbing) narrative kinks I love reading but wouldn't approve of in real life. But personally I find that a story really doesn't have to be very sexist/classist/racist etc for me to find it way too offensive to enjoy even if it does hit my narrative kinks. And as I learn more about sexism and racism etc I find more and more stories offensive: I can't just turn off my brain and enjoy them as a story. So the only way for me to enjoy a book like Twilight³ would be if I did subscribe to the sexist cliche, at least a bit. I can't draw that line between fantasy and reality so easily⁴. So again, you are assuming that all Twilight fans are making the same fantasy vs reality distinction you do when reading it, while I'm assuming they must be as messed up as I would have to be to read it. The truth is probably a mix of the two, but certainly some of them seem to be unable to draw the distinction you do.

Sorry for the tl;dr, you got me thinking :)

(1)Who is on my flist, and with whom I forsee a meaty conversation when I get my thoughts together and post a long rant she disagrees with :D
(2)Not so much with the stalking and undead thing, though. So, like Edward but better!
(3) Well, a better written version, that put me off before the sexism :)
(4) Fiction and reality, yes, but for me to vicariously enjoy a romance fantasy I have to be able to imagine myself happy in that relationship. As a tangent, this is why I like femslash more than slash.

Part 2

[alias_sqbr]

Point 3) So, given that the fantasies of 12 year old girls are a sore point for you (and I can understand why): how do you feel about restricting/judging the fantasies of men? Do you think it's ok to discourage men or boys from stuff like the Gor books/creepy porn/misogynistic movies, or to let them read it but criticise the creators? Or are you in favour of letting them explore their fantasies with a full reign too, seeing these works as a symptom of sexism not a partial cause?

EDIT: Actually, maybe it wasn't ithiliana. Hmm. Well, I found the link somewhere :)