torchwood 2.13

Part A: Love

Loved it.

Wow, I totally a.) did not expect to start crying and b.) realize how much I had grown to love Owen. I admit it, Fragments did it for me hard; I've liked him more and more since right before he died (the first time), but a lot about his first season behavior is clarified by his recruitment.

Random

(Plus, there's this entire thing with the ep with the guy who fucked with their memories that makes me twitchy; I hated Tosh the entire episode, beyond words to describe, and now I wonder what the hell the writers were thinking when they reversed Owen and Tosh's characters. Asshole is not more attractive when it's a woman than a man; then again, I never liked Cordelia Chase or Faith either, and by don't like, I mean, hated for a very long time. Faith grew on me; Cordelia never did.)

Part A, Continued

I would have liked to have more Grey development, because I like being conflicted. I totally understand his suffering, etc, except I just do not care. As is, Grey, didn't care, wanted to kill him. I think part of this is the actor sucked. A really unhinged performance would have helped, but it was like watching The Terminator, and who sympathizes with someone who doesn't change expressions? Or give any convincing--something. Anything. And I know it's possible; they had that chick who didn't know she was an alien spy and I loved her.

Owen died fantastically. I have a weakness for that moment. The look on his face as he turned toward the reactor, that flickering second of acceptance and humor and realization, that moment where everything he was and would have been came on like a light... I love when characters take death like this, not as an adversary or an enemy, but as a conquest. Bring. It. On.

Tosh broke my heart. I was counting down the seconds; I kind of hope they died together.

Part B: Not Love

Okay, here is the problem with the entire sequence.

Grey's master plan is to bury Jack alive, kill his team, and blow up Cardiff for the lulz, except boring lulz, becaues he's a freakishly boring adversary. So, buried Jack alive. On a planet. With people. Where no one will ever find him. Forever! Under Cardiff! And not bother to check and see if anything is ever built over that spot?????

Jack lets himself be buried alive. Okay, now. Penance. Right. Of all the ways to do penance, dying every few minutes buried in dirt? Really? Really?

I think part of the problem is, I didn't get a sense of horror--and people, that right there is twitchifying horror. But no. Jack tumbles in, blah blah blah, very Stranger, bear this message to the Spartans,that we lie here obedient to their laws. Very Spartan. That's the thing. A philosophy built on stupidity is still stupid. Dying for something--or being buried alive for something higher--yes, and that's both terrifying and workable and meaningful. This wasn't for something higher. This was for Jack's self-pity. He had a duty, and people that depended on him, and a situation that required his help. Flagellating yourself for almost two thousand years isn't noble and sure as fuck didnt' help much. It could have, should have, ended, or tried to end, on that grassy knoll with Grey either dead or Jack trying. Instead--he didn't. For no higher reason than his own guilt.

Things I Don't Get

1.) Six feet of dirt. Hands manacled. Coming alive every few minutes. Jack knows he's coming back every time. Before he dies--again--that's a good three minutes of digging. Even given shifting earth--he's able to dig every three or so minutes. He could have freaking gotten out. It would have taken a few weeks--I have never measured this nor do I wish to--but it's doable. If Buffy can do it in a few hours, Jack can manage in a few weeks.

2.) ...not even a little trauma from nearly two thousand years of this?

3.) Grey didn't even check to see what the fuck John threw in there? Why?

4.) Kill Grey. That is all. There's no redeeming value in him. I mean, seriously, The Joker has more redeeming value. At least he was interesting and insane.

5.) Okay, buried alive--stupid. If he was going for revenge, put Jack in a box and place him in a black hole. There. Done. As long as there are people around, and not unbreakable forces of physics, better guarantee.

Grey == very stupid evil.

Comments

[thepouncer.livejournal.com]

I haven't watched (nor will I), but I love that you've come up with plot holes right away. ♥

[seperis.livejournal.com]

*g* I get frustrated with tiny things so easily.

[joesther.livejournal.com]

1.) Six feet of dirt. Hands manacled. Coming alive every few minutes. Jack knows he's coming back every time. Before he dies--again--that's a good three minutes of digging. Even given shifting earth--he's able to dig every three or so minutes. He could have freaking gotten out. It would have taken a few weeks--I have never measured this nor do I wish to--but it's doable. If Buffy can do it in a few hours, Jack can manage in a few weeks.

THANK YOU!! I just said this very thing to a friend over IM, and yeah... totally weird. And too, if he's going to wake up every, say, year and we're talking (nearly) two thousand years, so two thousand deaths, what happened to the one thousand three hundred or so deaths we are told about in Fragments? Continuity, people.

Also, I'm having a hard time believing that Jack was in that tomb, in the Hub, for the entire time we've known Torchwood (and long before) and no one thought to check on that tomb? I don't know -- archive it or something? Sheesh. I mean, really - Gwen could have woken up the wrong Jack back in S1. Pfft.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

HANK YOU!! I just said this very thing to a friend over IM, and yeah... totally weird. And too, if he's going to wake up every, say, year and we're talking (nearly) two thousand years, so two thousand deaths, what happened to the one thousand three hundred or so deaths we are told about in Fragments? Continuity, people.

God, I hate, hate, hate their temporal math. It's killing me. I think that Jack is his own timeline, so these deaths would be, technically, temporally set after Fragments.

Also, I'm having a hard time believing that Jack was in that tomb, in the Hub, for the entire time we've known Torchwood (and long before) and no one thought to check on that tomb? I don't know -- archive it or something? Sheesh. I mean, really - Gwen could have woken up the wrong Jack back in S1. Pfft.

I want to know how he knew to the second. Though I guess he just guessed to set it by time after he left.

Also, why *couldn't* John go back and get him after Grey freed him? Like, five seconds after? Since they can move back and forth in time and all. And I'm still not sure how that was happening. Gah. Gah. And all of this isn't *hard*--five lines of explanation or dialog could explain it all.

[joesther.livejournal.com]

God, I hate, hate, hate their temporal math. It's killing me. I think that Jack is his own timeline, so these deaths would be, technically, temporally set after Fragments.

OK, I can deal with that. Fact is, the timelines have always confused me to death, so I can either try to work it out myself (and cause my brain to explode in the process), or I can take your word for it. I'll go with option B. :)

I want to know how he knew to the second. Though I guess he just guessed to set it by time after he left.

Yeah, I don't know. Again, another "wtf?" situation. So many of them this episode.

Also, why *couldn't* John go back and get him after Grey freed him? Like, five seconds after? Since they can move back and forth in time and all. And I'm still not sure how that was happening. Gah. Gah. And all of this isn't *hard*--five lines of explanation or dialog could explain it all.

Right, if John was being controlled and would have otherwise been a Good Guy, he could have totally gone back after Gray left and freed him, brought him back to his current day. But no. He left him to die and live, die and live, die and live for two thousand years (give or take) in the dirt. Way to show your love, John! :P

I don't know how I feel about Tosh and Owen dying. Part of me is still upset, 'cause particularly after Fragments, I learned to love them both all the more and it seemed like overkill (no pun intended) and unnecessary, but the point, as per the Declassified, was to drive home the point that in Torchwood, people die young. Fine. Point made. :P Now don't do it again.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Thinking of John as basically his very own timeline just makes it easier. Sort of. *G*

Yes on Owen and Tosh. And they were *good*. I cried.

[joesther.livejournal.com]

John, or Jack? LOL Real life sneaking in to your TW thoughts, hon?

And yes, I cried too. From "you're breaking my heart," and on, the tissues were in good use.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Gah, Jack.

It's worse, actually, as there is John Sheppard and freaking Captain John. Who I keep having ot not call Spike. It's scary.

...and maybe shows how much I one day, God willing, want to run across Jack Harkness/John Sheppard slash. Please. Please.

[joesther.livejournal.com]

LOL S'what I thought. ;)

I don't bother referring to Captain John as anything other than Spike in my brain. He is Spike. Same look, same hair, same accent. So that doesn't bug me.

Speaking of accents, let me ask you this. Have you noticed that Brits who speak Ameriglish don't pronounce the word "anything" (or "everything") properly? I've picked up on it (sorry: vocally trained and very picky) and I was wondering if I was the only one. Instead of saying "an-ee-thing," they say "an-eh-thing." Is it only me?

[threnodyjones.livejournal.com]

Not the only one, but then I was vocally trained too. :)

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

*cough*

try this? (http://janne-d.livejournal.com/40388.html)

*runs away*

[mad-jaks.livejournal.com]

God willing, want to run across Jack Harkness/John Sheppard slash

*points you to donutsweeper's stuff (http://donutsweeper.livejournal.com/tag/stargate+atlantis)* she has this whole verse thing going on - though I don't think much over a PG13 (even when the alien donuts get involved later) *G*

[out-there.livejournal.com]

Also, why *couldn't* John go back and get him after Grey freed him?

The DW handwave goes like this: you can't interfere with your own timeline. You can't be in two places at once within your own timeline so John could *either* go back to Cardiff 37AD and dig Jack up OR return to 2007 Cardiff and help Jack's team stay alive and find Jack.

Once you're involved in the series of events, you can't just go back to the start and warn people, or DW would have no adventures. So while John could have saved Jack, however many hours it took John to dig Jack back out are hours that would also pass for Gwen and Ianto. (And Jack's a big self-sacrifice type. He could accept years of torture but returning to 2007 to find his entire team dead might come close to breaking him.)

I think that Jack is his own timeline, so these deaths would be, technically, temporally set after Fragments.

*nods* So, yeah, now Jack's hitting close to the 4000 deaths mark. He should celebrate it or something.

[kickair8p.livejournal.com]

Is it really worse with the best and the brightest, or does it just seem that way? Rice, Whedon, Hamilton, Davies -- it's like, after a while, their own brilliance blinds them to their own bullshit. Which happens to everybody, sometimes, but most of us listen to our betas. Is it just that they've gotten to a place where they don't have to listen to what anybody else says?

~

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Gah, I don't know. I can overlook unavoidable holes, but tiny ones drive me *nuts*. Seriously, betas would not let them get away with that.

[basingstoke.livejournal.com]

There's also the massive plot hole of NUCLEAR REACTORS DON'T WORK LIKE THAT.

With a modern nuclear reactor, they SHUT DOWN IN A BLACKOUT. BECAUSE DUH. NUCLEAR SCIENTISTS LIKE BEING ALIVE.

god.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

I was wondering vaguely about the entire meltdown, but I don't know enough about nuclear reactors to be sure. Thank you.

*shakes tiny fist*

[threnodyjones.livejournal.com]

It's a special rift-altered nuclear reactor.

[fodian.livejournal.com]

A blackout would cause a shut down, but even when the reactor is shut down, the thermally hot and radioactive fuel inside the reactor would quickly overheat and cause a nuclear meltdown.

[j00j.livejournal.com]

My theory is that the same people who design Torchwood's contingency plans designed the ones for the reactor.

[bruinsfan.livejournal.com]

Maybe Margaret's successors in the Cardiff government built based on her über-dangerous faulty reactor plans from "Boomtown"?

[threnodyjones.livejournal.com]

Jack lets himself be buried alive. Okay, now. Penance. Right. Of all the ways to do penance, dying every few minutes buried in dirt? Really? Really?

I think Jack's still working out some Master issues.

But better yet - John was allowed one time transport. He comes back to present all emo and upset because he was forced to betray Jack and Gwen must help him! NOW!

Dude, you couldn't have popped a few weeks, months, years after 27 AD to dig Jack back out? Seriously? Come on. You should have stopped thinking emo thoughts and dug him out!

[seperis.livejournal.com]

I seriously wanted to slap Jack for that one. What did he think Grey was going to do when he was done? Go quietly into the good night? JACK SHOW US LESS OF YOUR ISSUES!

And yes, exactly.

[threnodyjones.livejournal.com]

I wonder if that's why Jack was so freakishly, "I FORGIVE YOU GREY!" because it took him 1,874 years to figure out that no, Grey probably really didn't care about Jack's ascension to martyr.

[pocketmouse]

I totally agree with you about Jack digging out. I mean, to spend 1874 years in the dirt, only to cross his own timeline? No no no. Unless Jack was expecting John to come for him, which is the only explanation I can think of. Though if he didn't come after a bit, Jack should have started digging.

And there's no way no one noticed an extra Jack lying around in storage -- either it was a secret joke amongst everyone else, to explain Jack's apparent eternal youth, or it was frozen with a bunch of notes like 'No, Emma, you can't open the storage locker on level 19' and 'Ianto, don't look in here -- hide your girlfriend in subbasement 14.'

I can only assume that Gray's insanity also caused brain damage -- the contagious kind. What ring? Oh that ring? No, totally not important.

But, love! OMG, so much love. I was trembling. I was not expecting that. It was so painfully good.

And they are definitely together.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

'Ianto, don't look in here -- hide your girlfriend in subbasement 14.'

THAT WAS ON A POST-IT NOTE I BET! *COLLAPSES*

And ooh. *hopeful* I think it happened like that. *hugs you* Yes. That.

[wrenlet.livejournal.com]

'Ianto, don't look in here -- hide your girlfriend in subbasement 14.'

*cracks up*

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Couldn't help quoting that. *G*

http://community.livejournal.com/overheardfandom/11682.html

[pocketmouse]

Thanks! I haven't been quoted before.

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

Jack wouldn't have stayed alive long enough to dig, provided he came back to life at all without any oxygen.

John got a single one way ticket to anywhere OUT of 27AD. Of course, he could have chosen 28AD, but what if Jack was already out somehow?

I have no idea why the hell Jack's clothes stayed in perfect condition for 2000 years.

I have no idea why Gray sucked so godamn hard. Possibly because he didn't have any kind of arc, just you know. A lot of badly written lines. Maybe part of his torture involved a lobotomy, thereby explaining the ring thing? Yea. I got nothing.

I guess they figure no one knows a damn thing about nuclear reactors- and they were right, I bought that bit.

OMG TOSH AND OWEN.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

TOSH AND OWEN.

*still* kills me. Even now.

[sholio]

bwahahahaha ... I just posted pretty much the twin of this post, at least regarding the plot holes. I can put up with some pretty amazing plot holes (hello, SGA!) but this ... this made the worst episodes of SGA look like Shakespeare.

I loved the Owen/Tosh parts and the sense of apocalypse at the beginning. The rest of it, though ... not so much. Though maybe I'm just bitter because they basically killed off both of my main reasons for watching the show. It wasn't quite "rocks fall, everyone dies!" but it was pretty close.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Yes! Because they were all *stupid* plotholes, ones that were perfectly correctable in first beta, you know? SGA's can be insane, but some of them are just--well, unavoidable wtihout a lot of backstory. This? Not so much.

And God, Owen/Tosh. Just. Yes.

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

See, I can't even get to thinking about the plot issues because all I can see is Tosh crying while she listens to Owen get ready to die and never letting on that she is too.

Though, nitpick - I think victorian TW girl said he was twenty feet down when they found Jack? Which still should be diggable. I was wondering myself if the reason he didn't, and also didn't go completely insane, was that he just didn't revive because there was no air to sustain it or something. I think that in a situation where there is no air available at all, people lose consciousness almost immediately? And if Jack did revive, it wouldn't be with a lung full of air, it would be with no air getting to his lungs and no air left in his body to get to his brain so he might not ever wake before he died again.

I agree that he should have made more of an effort to stop Gray but I think at that point Jack wasn't exactly thinking very clearly. I thought as well that one of the reasons at least that Jack let himself get buried was he didn't want John to get blown up trying to stop it.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Huh. I didn't think of that. Hmm. Possibly. *mulls*

[elzybub.livejournal.com]

See with the trauma thing I figure that Jack has been through worse in his time so he has learned to deal with crazy shit. Though I do agree the burring alive thing was stupid and they should have done something a little bit more terrifying.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

It should have been terrifying--I mean, Adrift did more with a lot less in terms of terror, when you think about it, and all they had was that guy starting to scream and Gwen saying in that horrified, shell shocked voice what had happened to him.

[aurora]

Big fat ZOMG WORD to all the plot holes and the lameness of Gray.

I'm still completely wrecked over Tosh and Owen, though. God, I can't imagine what s3 will look like.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

*nod* God yes. No clue there either.

[taraljc.livejournal.com]

The A-plot makes me want to kill people. Loved Tosh, loved Owen, want to tie Chris Chibnall to a chair and force him to listen as I explain the mechanics of writing action/adventure to him, and how Jack as Christ figure was bad the first time, and thus WORSE the second time.

[mitzi007.livejournal.com]

I'm going to go with a theory that Jack didn't wake up when he was buried. Because he didn't have oxygen to breathe he either stayed dead or at least in some kind of coma like state the whole time and didn't wake up until Torchwood dug him up.

Must have been a bit of an anticlimax to him.

JACK: *wakes up* Okay, now it begins, my great penance. Wait, what, somebody is digging me up. It's already 1901? Damn.

[sapote3.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the plot-hole sporking, because I had to stop watching halfway through and come read the spoilers, and thinking "Hell, yes, he could have dug his way up" really kept me from completely losing it in the last half of the episode. Also, Buffy was in, like, a professional coffin. Those things are sturdily-built! She had to punch her way out of a well-constructed box and then dig. Jack seriously has no excuses. Though I did welcome the return of the over-acted, crazed Victorian lady. May she show up later, if there is a later, because insane Victorian lesbians are exactly what I want from Torchwood.

Seconded Gray's general lameness. Maybe if they had brought him in earlier and made him sympathetic and then slowly villainous, like Adam?

I seriously did not realize that Owen was one of my favorite characters before this episode. Oops. As for Tosh, it will be a while before I can discuss her rationally, so I'm going to keep it to my own lj *g*.

Also, re: the grave-related trauma, I never thought I'd be pointing to Buffy Season 6 as an example of how to do something better, but seriously, a little post-death angst, plz, show.

[bruinsfan.livejournal.com]

To be fair, Buffy's probably 10 or more times as strong as Jack and had a coffin's depth of clear space to get a start and shift loose dirt down into as she dug. But yeah, shifting upwards an inch a year should have gotten Jack free a lot sooner.

[eleveninches.livejournal.com]

Ugh, I'm mad they killed off two of the only three characters (number three being Rhys) that I actually liked. I bet they let Jack, Gwen, and Ianto live so they could continue their lame love triangle.

I wonder if this is how mad harddcore Carson fans were when the tumours killed him.

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

I'm mad they killed off two of the only three characters (number three being Rhys) that I actually liked. I bet they let Jack, Gwen, and Ianto live so they could continue their lame love triangle.

Heh. See my snarky comment to that effect.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

I am hoping for a threesome, really.

[basingstoke.livejournal.com]

Torchwood probably has a lot of frozen people. It would be hilarious if they have ANOTHER frozen Jack for the catastrophe coming in 2513, and a couple of frozen Martians who got horribly lost and just wanted to wait it out until 2178. Plus Bigfoot.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

I was mulling there should be a special level for all the people frozen for time purposes. I just get a kick out of the idea of one of them going down and finding themselves. Or their great great granddaughter or something.

[out-there.livejournal.com]

I think part of the problem is, I didn't get a sense of horror--and people, that right there is twitchifying horror.

That's actually very true. It kind of worries me how often Jack is getting killed as a form of torture (I mean, really, the year wth the Master? TW is not supposed to do things that make a year with the Master look *easier in comparison*. I'm kind of... sick of Jack dying, to tell the truth. I'd like us to go a whole season without him having to die) and here, having 2000 years pass? Doesn't quite work for me.

Inside my head, I'm totally imagining John going back to repent -- in a litle way -- and digging Jack up in 38AD and taking him forward to 1899 and reburying. No, scratch that. I'm going to imagine the ring in a locator device and that John comes back -- after a while -- with the right technology and transports Jack in time while keeping Jack in the same place. Jack -- waking up, suffocating slowly, dying, rinse and repeat -- won't realise that his 2000 year penance was only 2 months long, but John will know that he eased it as much as he could without screwing with the timeline.

and, despite all that, I still love that Jack Harkness is breaking stereotypes a bit. I mean, in this episode he's clearly the Damsel in Distress, but he's also the Returning Hero. He saves himself. There's something very cool about that even though I can't quite articulate it in better terms.

Grey == very stupid evil.

I'm reading it as Gray (according to the TW declassified, so I'm sticking to that spelling) wasn't stupid so much as self-destructive. He kept talking about death in terms of release, and I think that he had a death wish. He wanted petty revenge but part of him also wanted to push Jack to kill him, to force Jack to live with his conscience after causing his brother's death *by his own hand*.

It's very... It's very Master-ish, honestly. See, I spent most of the John-being-evil scenes thinking of the Master, thinking of this example of psycho ex's who hurt you down and destroy your life; now I can't help thinking of Gray as an example of the other side of the Master: psycho and damaged, lashing out to hurt their supposed nemesis. I don't know if that's an RTD writing thing or an Annie thought the Master rocked as a villian thing.