meta link: to those on sf-drama regarding rapefic by anonymous

to those on sf-drama regarding rapefic by anonymous, posted on fail_fandonanon. Today is suspend your dislike of anonymeme day, if the excuse is needed. Anonymeme etiquette requires posting anon; today's the first time I thought it was worth not ever being able to say again I didn't participate in anonymeme, because that deserved a response.

Context, especially the superthreads on pages two and three. The post spanned most of Wednesday and some of early Thursday so at this point it is pretty much dead

Warning: This content is triggery for survivors of sexual assault. It is not safe. If you need more specific warnings as to make an informed judgment, please leave a comment.

So this is surprisingly early in the day that I wish it were already over. It may be a record.

ETA: I have no idea how I forgot this. Wank Report's report; the OP of the SFD post comments.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Hi, I'm one of the nonnies in that thread. I just wanted to thank you for your comments in the sf_d thread. As a rape survivor who reads and writes non-con, that whole thing was really upsetting to me. I hate the shaming and blaming that goes on in these situations, and I worry about other rape survivors who come to fandom, see things like this, and feel bad about themselves and about the tools they use to deal with their situations.

Anyway, the fact that you stood up for those of us feeling shamed and silenced meant a lot to me.

[seperis]

I hope the thread over there helped with the utter horror of sf_d. This does not help at all, but i do think a lot of it was about fanfic writers and they threw rape victims under the bus without thinking it through. I know it doesn't make it less shaming, but if this had been pretty much antyhing but Harry Potter or fanfic writers, none of you would have been hit by this and with so little basic protection. Or at least, not so blatantly.

The OP did apologize at wank_report and on the main post at sf_drama, if that helps. And she did take complete responsibility for her actions and what they set off eventually.

I'm saying this not because it changes one iota of their fucked up shit they can't own or lessens their culpability, but it may, somehow, make it a little easier for the victims to know about it. And I'm so sorry. There is pretty much nothing on earth that can excuse or explain what happened in there.

[(Anonymous)]

Heh, and it's HP fandom I got into just after the rape, and they were the ones who told me everyone's kinks are different and it's all just fiction and I was totally okay. They were an awesome support group. Moreover, my therapist was aware of my writing and said writing non-con and being involved in fandom were a great idea; she was so pleased that I could express what I was feeling in such a non-judgmental place which was, in fact, loaded with other survivors. Since rape is ultimately about control, writing about it is about taking back that control. I could not understand why those sf_d people weren't getting that.

So typically, nowadays I don't have a problem standing up and talking about this, but sf_d looked like it would be wading into a group of angry hornets without wearing any pants. I mean, I think I could have left A comment, but the relentless assholism that followed each sensible comment would have been too much for me. And you left SO MANY sensible comments! It just made me feel so much better to see you being able to stay calm and be rational and keep fighting the good fight.

Anyway, I will go read the apologies. It is actually kind of a relief, I guess. There are some people in that thread who will NEVER apologize, who will NEVER care that they made several rape survivors feel really, really horrible for a few days. Winning internet arguments is obviously far more important to them than the actual women they seem to think they're protecting.

And really, no apologies from you! You were the bright spot in this mess; you put forth all the arguments I would have liked to give had I the strength. There are just some places on the internet I know not to go because they are filled with hornets--angry, irrational hornets--and sf_d is now on that list.

[aivilo_18]

You were awesome, btw. I haven't had the chance to tell you that because I'm still on "fire bad/tree pretty" default and still attempting to not just run for the emergency vodka two days later.

But, yeah. Amazing. Just wanted you to know that.

[seperis]

....fire is bad? *bewildered*

I also forgot to thank you for the kings of leon album rec. Guess what my current soundtrack is?

*SENDS HUGS* Your convo on SFD was good. I don't know if you got this impression from her, but I did get she was at least rethinking where her hardline stance was going and how it wasn't a black and white issue.

[aivilo_18]

Yeah, I got that, but I really was at the point where I seriously couldn't keep debating and discussing it? Like, I was *not* feeling good towards the end and it was literally "Run or start yelling and swearing".

It wasn't even really her, to be honest. She had good points. I didn't agree with her overall argument, but I understood kinda where she was coming from. However, I felt like we were getting to the point where she thought I was saying one thing and I thought she was saying another and combined with all the other asshat comments I was reading, I just really needed to get the fuck out.

[nianeyna]

Oh ugh, I am so glad I missed this wank. :/

[seperis]

It's like one of thsoe you can't set on fire and wonder why.

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you for linking this

That made me feel a little ill (your warnings were more than sufficient, I just tend to read it anyway), mostly because I am a survivor who also reads/writes rape fic. I think a lot of the anon's comments about how people saying that rape fic is wrong and harmful and won't somebody think about people who are actually raped is often painful for survivors who write/read rape fic (whether for coping and healing, or just because they want to read it, or for whatever reasons), because it makes it into something we "shouldn't" do. Just like the whole survivors shouldn't wear revealing clothes or go out walking alone, or whatever else it is that we're not supposed to do (and yes, I've had people tell me both of those things).

Thank you anon for coming out and saying what a lot of people are probably feeling (myself included).

[seperis]

The painful part is that the people that should have to say shit anon should be the people in that post spouting off pop psychology bullshit that is mostly their own internalized issues combined with wanting to be cool. Instead, the victims have to be anon and I have to say, being able to speak about this under anon takes a ridiculous amount of courage.

Just like the whole survivors shouldn't wear revealing clothes or go out walking alone, or whatever else it is that we're not supposed to do (and yes, I've had people tell me both of those things).

I don't think sorry even starts to cover the range of fail associated with that. Holy fucking shit. How do people who think like this have enough verbal skills after the obvious lobotomy to put that sentence together? Christ.

I'm sorry and also, fuck them.

[less_star]

Awesome response, thank you so much! I read most of the sf_drama post before I could stop myself and I was really upset at all the vicious Not Getting It.

[seperis]

You couldn't actually break it down into smaller words in the end. I have no idea how some of the pepole in those threads weren't setting things on fire.

[cesare]

I don't have the fortitude to deal with reading the sf_drama stuff.

But from the fail_fandomanon anon comment, it sounds like you said a lot that really needed to be said in a hostile environment. So thank you for speaking out.

[seperis]

Someone who has me friended just showed up there to argue about women's mental health aand violence worriedly. This is not going to end, is it? Like, ever.

[darkrose]

I think my coping mechanism for this is to repeatedly read "coma rape" as "comma rape". WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE PUNCTUATION?!

[seperis]

....God, after a while there was no way you couldn't. Then it was a weird "we are raping grammar?" and ahhh.

[amireal.livejournal.com]

That post creeps me right the fuck out. As someone who, you know, has mental issues, I can safely say that this sort of 'morality' play is the LAST THING a therapist really cares about as long as you are safe, sane (i.e. no sticking cocks in electrical sockets, which might come under safe, but I feel it deserves its own category) and consensual. Understanding your own mind is completely different than your happy place being a possible indicator for moral decay. Jesus. Safe and consensual sex is always moral (okay, insert adultery caveat here) and reading about kinky sex is like, 12 times removed from actively participating.

*INCOHERENT WITH RAGEYNESS*

[seperis.livejournal.com]

There was some of careful BUT BDSM AND RAPE FANTASY UNDER THESE SPECIFIC BDSM CIRCUMSTANCES IS FINE dancing which--you know, was actually kind of funny in retrospect.

I'm like, fighting the urge to send email to all my friends and sneidng them to be supportive of the anon and yes, that does smack of condescending, but it's like I can't think of anything else to do. Like change society. *hands*

[amireal.livejournal.com]

I saw that BDSM dance, omg. I'm sure it's because BDSM is rife with 'assumptions' about what it's really about. *eyerolls* You and me babe, once we're married we'll honeymoon and then take over the world.

[maryaminx.livejournal.com]

God, that was such a shitstorm of "fantasy rape role play is okay but if you read erotic non con you are contributing to rape apologism!!"

*facepalms*

I have a massive dubcon/coerced consent kink for very specific reasons and what I really need to be told is that I'm making more women get raped.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

I don't get why that's different. Like, it's funtimes as long as a woman has someone else involved like, why do I need someone else to hear me give permission for it, you don't trust my word that I consent to events going on in my own head? I don't claim to be a master of logic but I feel there's some kind of failure going on there.

I have a massive dubcon/coerced consent kink for very specific reasons and what I really need to be told is that I'm making more women get raped.

The only way that argument works for me is if they're saying it's damaging to the woman to do it to herself, but that comes back to the assumption that non-con kink is a non-standard and research has proven it's very, very standard both in very mild forms from light dubcon Regency romance to the stuff that ends with coma!barty and further. There are legion the ways men and women kink for lack of control; it's not like this is new. And I never did a clear explanation why rapefic was totally different.

There's a part of me--and I can't back this other than how women are treated in anything regarding sexuality--that rape fantasy would make everyone a lot less uneasy if it wasn't so proactive. There's argument about mixed messages and normalization and how can you like something that is about your own debasement, which misses the point. In human history, this is the first time that rape isn't a property crime against a man.

As a women-are-property-but-own-themselves, it's all about keeping the property nice now that we own it and overlooking the entire goddamn point; a woman is not property and rape is not about damaging the property, rapists are not thinking about how they are trespassing on someone else's lawn, it's about violation of will, about having the power to force on her something she does not want. Fantasy, by definition, is a woman's will above all, and her power to enforce it.

But then it may be uncomfortable to argue about how women shouldn't do it if you have to actually conceptualize "You are evil and wrong for violating your own will." Then you kinda sound crazy. Protecting our property rights metaphorically sounds better. Then you can still tell women they own their property wrong without having to actually say a woman has no personal will.

tldr thoughts 1/2

[svilleficrecs.livejournal.com]

Just a two-cents thought about "rape fic" vs visual/video male-targeted pornography featuring rape.

I think that beyond the visual/textual divide (which is valid), there is (in *general*) a significant difference in how men as a group use video pornography and how fangirls as a group use smutty fic. (caveat that everyone's a special snowflake bla bla bla)

By and large, when a guy goes to use a piece of visual porn, it's being used almost exclusively as a functional tool, and its use tends to be limited to that context. That is, your average guy is going to go 'hey, I'm in the mood to wank', pops in Ass Blasters 7, click to the favorite scene of that blond by the pool w/ all the baby oil, hand on cock, wank wank wank, oh that made my dick particularly hard, rewind replay, wank wank wank, squirt, turn off video,(hopefully) wash hands, go make a sammich or take a nap.

I exaggerate, but you get the idea. For the most part, porn is a masturbation enhancement tool and it's very rarely used for a hell of a lot more than that. So, (if you're going to come down on fake-rape-vids, which I'm not necessarily, just for arguement's sake), part of what might make rape vids for male jerk off consumption inherently more problematic than, say, some Snape rapes hermione in a coma fic is as follows.

If a dude gets into rape vids as his wank-fodder of choice, it's a lot easier to see how a twice daily replay of the rapeyer bits, directly in front of him, every time he gets his dick hard, every time he squirts, might possibly wear a grove into his sexual response patterns. In some respects, the porn a guy picks up isn't necessarily given much more thought and analysis and reflection than the vibrator a woman picks up. It's not a narrative with erotic elements to him. It's a tool to get his dick hard that happens to come in narrative form.

(again, with the caveat that this is a broad generalization, snowflakes, etc).

WHEREAS, while ladies wank (I certainly do) and fan girls certainly wank to erotic stories, I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of women don't stick their hands down their panties every time they click through to an NC-17 fic, nor do they only click through to them when they're in the mood to diddle themselves. Sometimes? Yes. We all read for different reasons? OF course.

BUT, I'd bet you anything that 99 times out of a hundred, when your average guy pops in Ass Blasters 7, he's doing it with the specific and single minded intent of grabbing his dick and making it squirt with some gaping anal creampies as lovely mental wallpaper.

IDK what the percentage of 'ooo, PWP, let me grab my vibe' or 'I want to hump a pillow, where's my Snarry chan' is. But, the point is, most of us read what we consider smut (even the PWP stuff) for a whole host of reasons that aren't always even directly related to immediate sexual arousal. Hell, if I diddled myself every time I read smutfic, I'd have rubbed my clit clean off years ago.

Re: tldr thoughts 1/2

[svilleficrecs.livejournal.com]

SO (what's your point, sville), my point is that a man using a simulated rape video as his favorite wank fodder is far, far more likely wear a mental groove in terms of rape imagery being the number one (or only) thing that gets his dick as hard as he likes. Whereas people (men or women) who like the dynamics at play in well done non-con or dub-con textual erotica are going to use it in situations other than 'this is the lever I'm using directly on my libido for this particular orgasm hunt', it's going to tend to be part of a more varied diet of entertainment input, diluting its effect, and it's much less likely to be the skipping record I return to time and time again when I want to get off.

I wank to fic. I've wanked to mainstream visual hardcore heteromale targeted porn. But I've read plenty of sexy fic without any intention of arousing myself to the point of orgasm, whereas I'd bet any honest dude will tell you that pretty much the only reason he ever puts on video porn is with the specific intent of increasing the speed/intensity of the orgasm he's about to induce. He doesn't put much more analysis into it than I put into choosing which vibrator or dildo I'll be using.

Therefore, a guy who has a lot of rapey videos in his collection is a lot more likely to normalize rapey vibes as something he might (consciously or not) want to work into his RL sex life (and/or is more likely to wear a deep enough groove that he has trouble getting off without the rapey vibes). Where as a woman with a lot of non-con on her delicious bookmarks is a) less likely to use that exclusively for wank fodder purposes and only wank fodder purposes, b) is more likely to have a varied wank fodder diet in addition to non-con, c) isn't as likely to use it as a 'this is directly in front of me while I get off' tool. That can happen, but there are many ways to use textual erotica as a masturbation enhancement tool.

Actual hardcore vids? The (only real) point is to have it on your retinas as you squirt. And that's just a fundamentally different pathway you're beating. Both have the potential to normalize rapey vibes as an acceptable arousal enhancement (and it's debatable as to whether that's intrinsically problematic, as well as whether it's more problematic to beat that path in someone with a dick vs. someone without). BUT, in one case, it's much more directly connected with the lizard brain, and with arousal only. In the other, there's far more room for reflection, and getting other stuff out of it besides an unexamined RAPE IS HAWT.

THAT is why I'd be far more inclined to look askance at a guy with a lot of rapey porn in his dvd stack than I would at a girl with a lot of non con themed erotica on her bookshelf. And I say this as someone who has purchased and enjoyed (for myself, and for my male partner) more hardcore male oriented troofax porn DVDs than I could count on two hands.

As for why I'm saying this here rather than over there, um, I actually respect your thoughts on the matter, where as I'm fairly sure that posting this over there is only going to lead to circular arguments that will eat up my whole day.

[cottontail.livejournal.com]

That anonymous letter was totally spot-on.

[wyoluvr.livejournal.com]

well, now i feel an urge to go read some hot non-con.

[droolfangrrl.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the heads up, but after a quick look, I'm staying far away from this.

[apetslife.livejournal.com]

Oh, what the fuck. What the FUCK.

I made the mistake of clicking the "context" link and now I want to slam my head into something hard, repeatedly.

I'm just very glad that I do not recognize any names of the main offenders there, but holy shit. That is some seriously fucked-up stuff going on in there. "Your kink is not okay and I'm totally justified in judging you and not wanting you anywhere near me." WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK?

...okay, I used "fuck" a lot in there, but as a person with a wide and far-ranging set of things I like to read and write in fanfic, I can't help but take that shit pretty damn personally.

[fyrdrakken]

The thought I had last night while grocery-shopping, that there's no way in hell I'm jumping into the wankstorm to share with those on sf_d, is that the little summation regarding not contributing to rape (culture) being more important than getting yourself off (with the heavy implication that anyone who thinks otherwise has some severe moral issues quite aside from the question of the subject matter that does it for them) is a false dichotomy:

Suppression of the free exploration and expression of women's sexuality is also part of rape culture -- a huge fucking part, a necessary underpinning of the "'no' sometimes means 'yes'" myth. Because to believe that "no" means "yes," you have to believe that (nice, decent) women won't say "yes" when they mean it, and women have to be trained that they aren't allowed to admit to the things they want. Let alone find out what they really do want, so they have a definite "yes" to compare to their reaction when their date wants something they're ambivalent about agreeing to. Because once you believe that women are never enthusiastic about sex, you believe that there is always a certain degree of pressure or coercion to get them to consent, and from that point on it's just a hazy subjective line marking the distinction between "acceptable levels" of seduction or coercion and outright rape.

So, yeah, not allowing women to write rape fic if it gets them and their (also-female) readers off would in fact be contributing to rape culture.

[ashleigh-lin.livejournal.com]

Marry me.

[aivilo-18.livejournal.com]

This. This so *hard*.

[in-stead.livejournal.com]

Word.

[tricksterquinn.livejournal.com]

...I should... not look at that, right?

[ashleigh-lin.livejournal.com]

If you were standing in front of me right now, I would kiss you. On the mouth.

...or try to anyway, but when you held up your hands going "WHOA WHOA WHAO WTF?" I would apologize and offer you some of this delicious pie I'm eating.

Basically I love you want to carry you around in my pocket so you can be all logical all day ♥ ♥ ♥

[in-stead.livejournal.com]

I am just made really uncomfortable by people who are arrogant enough to pass moral judgement on others based on the thinnest of on-line interaction, not to mention the range of people in that original thread piping up with sweeping statements on how rape survivors must feel and react as a means of supporting their points.

Why do they find it difficult to draw the line between fantasy explored in a way where no one gets hurt and any situation in which in real life people are in real life assaulted and harmed? One does not equal the other. Being squicked by someone else's kink does not make you morally superior to them.

If anything, these so-called morally superior, judgemental individuals are the ones crossing the line and causing IRL harm by undermining fandom's safe-place status.