seperis | blah. sundays. *again*

Okay, I have never pretended I have a deeply intellectual side that goes beyond, fire pretty, John pretty, sex pollen awesome. I also like mass murder and destroying worlds, leaving them in a thousand year darkness. Etc.

Responsible Fanfiction by

heatherly, which I saw linked around like everywhere, but honestly? Essay title threw me off being interested. Thinking deeply is what I do when balancing policy questions and practical consideration of state benefits, and honestly, it's been a rough few weeks in fandom. I'm on subsistence-level fanfic reading and that is pretty exclusively devoted to anything

ltlj puts out or

mmmchelle posts.

I think the problem emerges in that I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take away from it.

There's nothing in it, to me, that I didn't know before. I think I missed something in translation. And reading comments? Did not help at all. Mostly, I was:

a.) not terribly interested in how mainstream sees me. So what the hell do I care if they have some kind of strange freakout. Mainstream are the people who turned Silence of the Lambs and Hannibal into bestsellers and movies. These books are in my work's trading area. They turned American Psycho into a bestseller with a detailed how-to on rape and explicit torture in loving detail. Forgive me if I can't take seriously the idea that "mainstream" has a leg to stand on in sitting judgement on our subject manner.

Beyond that? I. Do. Not. Care.

(but I totally reserve to everyone else the right to care all you want. Honest.)

b.) realism in fiction is right up there with realism in art. When someone can put into terms how cubism or Picasso or post-modern *anything* is actually a dead-on photograph of the world, I will totally take it back. But seriously. What does fiction have to do with reality? The only thing I've ever asked of fiction is that they use good characterization and please stop using wonton. Otherwise, go crazy. I may not read it if it doesn't fall in my specific set of interests, but diversity leads to categories like mpreg, and really, what would we be without mpreg? In a sad place, I wager.

(and I totally reserve to everyone else the right to go the realism route. I'm just saying. My two most popular fic ever involve a.) serial killing mass murders taking over Atlantis and b.) Clark Kent as a *god*. It's like the hypocrite calling the Republican blue.)

(this is a joke, I swear. the Rebublican thing. true of democrats as well. really.)

A very real part of me thinks that the essay is meant more as a guide to those that *do* want to work with more realism than trying to make a point that all of us should gently move away from our lighthearted hooker fics and romantic aliens-made-them-do-it. And I think--think being the operative word--that the murmurs since LJ Strikeout 2007 have been toward the idea that if we are going to be seen, we should make sure we're dressed well and use more base to cover up the more unsightly bits of what we're doing.

It's very--disconcerting. I'm not even close to the more extreme ends of fandom in terms of what I write, and I'm *still* feeling vaguely unsettled by the idea. There's something very uncomfortable in the idea that we'll turn on each other, in groups, as individuals, to claim our normality by condemning them (whoever 'them' may be) for the sake of a nebulous "mainstream". That we allow those outside us to set the rules we are to follow to be accepted. Whatever the hell accepted is supposed to be.

Actually, I'd like a defintion of all questionable words in the above paragraph. I think that would clarify a lot.

I could be totally reading way too much into recent debates. This is what happens when I haven't had coffee. Very tragic.

Personally, I have taken the opportunity to begin writing a fantabulous story in which many things of a dubious moral nature happen. I've always taken great delight in making the reader question the morality of a situation, and I've always considered it a fine pursuit for a writer. The written word is meant to provoke, to stimulate, and I want to wield it to the best of its ability. My audience, I am somewhat ashamed to say, has never mattered. Either they will like it or they won't; I have done my best to interest them, and the rest is left to them. Opinions of what I write will never matter, because I do it to better myself and to simply let the story out of my head. I've never, ever been mainstream, never paid heed to mainstream, because mainstream generally does not know what it wants. Torture is horrible, but Hannibal is sexy! Starving children in Africa are terrible, but starving models for entertainment is hot!

Fortunately, I think the main theme people took away from this (or at least the people I care about) is that we have the right to our interests, and our art, and in a world of ever-decreasing rights, we will hang onto this one tooth and nail. I may not be able to speak against the government without being put in jail without charge, but I can damn well read and write Wincest if I want to.

Huh. ANd LJ will not let me answer. Again.

Trying again.

Yes. Agreed.

And totally long live Wincest!

*raises glass*

I'm with you on the whole "wanting to be validated by the mainstream" thing. I just DON'T GET IT. We write pron about TV shows; the mainstream is gonna find that weird for years or even decades to come. Hell even mainstream fandom--those ever popular fanboys who live in basements--usually doesn't accept us. Not writing about uncomfortable subjects isn't going to change that.

Exactly. The most anyone could hope for woudl be *less weird*.

And honestly? I think the part of the not-understnading? Is based out of why on earth we'd *write* without the potential of making money from it. It's--hmm. Yes. Weird.

And honestly? I think the part of the not-understnading? Is based out of why on earth we'd *write* without the potential of making money from it. It's--hmm. Yes. Weird.

I think that's part of the whole FanLib divide too; the guys who run the place don't understand that many of us don't want to get closer to TPTB.

The first and only time I showed my visiting Mom the gen mailing list I belonged to, I got a lecture about how fandom beyond reading the book/watching the show is such a colossal waste of time, and did she ever mention the better uses of time than reading the book/watching the show?

We never even made it to fanfiction.

a.) not terribly interested in how mainstream sees me. So what the hell do I care if they have some kind of strange freakout

The reason put forth about why fen should care is that mainstream's freakout to fanfiction, especially fanfiction dealing with rape, incest, etc., could cause another LJ Strikethrough. That, even tho WFI was a fringe ~~group~~ person, her attitude about rapefic, cestfic, chan, etc., is generally in line with mainstream's viewpoint, it's yucky nasty stuff and we should be ashamed of ourselves. And given the current atmosphere in government (search and detain first, arrest later and the legislation attempting to make copyright infringement a jailable offense), that we should be aware of the possible consequences, both from being TOSed and more.

But putting on our best clothes, neatening up the place, hiding anything objectionable in the closet or back bedroom so that all the normal people think we're just like them? That attitude reminds me of people patting women on the head in the 50s and telling us not to worry our pretty little heads about such things, that the menfolk know what's best for us.

So I'll be over here instead, in my nice messy place, sorting thru all the fic, picking and choosing what I like and letting others do the same, embracing the diversity of not just fandom but of LJ and all sorts of place on the net like it. We all get to be different and think different and talk different and walk different. Cause you know, if everyone posted cat macros all day long, it'd be a damn boring place.

Yes. Exactly. Word to all of it.

*offers glass*

I just want to know where the line is drawn between Important Art That People Should Be Exposed To and Dirty Inappropriate Porn That Should Not Be Touched By Discerning Individuals, because as far as I can tell, it's blurry, and more important than that, it's ever-moving. I don't really understand how I can condone young adult novels for containing the same issues I'm supposed to be condemning fic for. That's... kind of my gold standard. I keep reading in horror about how kidlit gets banned while authors do their best to fight; I can't quite accept that fandom's response could possibly be to just roll over.

Also? Unless that line between Art and Smut is the same for EVERY SINGLE PERSON EVER, I don't see how anyone can even pretend to mandate what "responsible" writing is. If we can't even settle on a definition, I don't see how we can say what can and cannot be shared.

That line is forever a mystery to me. It's just--yeah. Exactly.

well said

can I agree here? I read what interests me and that is varied and eclectic, sometimes realist, sometimes fantasy, my favourite genre is probably science fantasy/fiction and I reserve the right to read and enjoy well written slash. Having said that like you, I believe writers should write what they want, I may not read it but that does not mean that they should not write it

you know I first got into LJ following a story that you had written, it was QaF I think, then I read most of your other work, I like the way that you write, your characterisation, the language and the flow of what you write. And I like the way you write about your life, how is the preparation for the cruise/tme in the sun going?

*nods* Yes. And you know, now that you say that, the eclectic-ness (is that a word? I have no idea) is kind of the point. No where else would anyone do a Harlequin Sci-Fi Romance With Mpreg!!!!! Er, so tos peak.

And thank you! *blushes* I like to think I'm fun to read? But seriously, have no idea for sure.

*hugs*

If that's the essay I'm thinking of, she also had the rather fantastic notion that if something is illegal, fiction about it can never became mainstream.

Which would totally explain Silence of the Lambs, Hannibal and American Psycho, right?

Which isn't to say I *completely* disagree with her. But she was generalizing way too much.

Yeah, it's a little too--general is kind of what I was thinking, but more, it feels more specialized. More for people that are writing in general a lot more serious than we are for teh most part.

Hmm. It was odd, to be honest.

My impression was that part of who she was addressing is the newbie writers who suddenly discover HP incest (or rapefic or chan or Wincest or whatever) and start posting loads of erotic fantasy about it, that she feels like if mainstream people see that, they'll freak out at someone thinking incest is *fun* and *sexy* and want it stopped.

And because of her day job, it sounds like *any* fic that deals with child abuse, rape, incest, etc., no matter how it's handled, realistically or as fantasy or in between, pushes all her squick buttons and she's trying to find a way for it to be acceptable to her. If people wrote it seriously with all the pain of real life, then it would be more okay, at least she'd know that people didn't take it lightly.

And given her day job and what I'm reading between the lines of her post, she did it as objectively as she could, imho, and she did offer a resource for writers who are dealing with it realistically in their stories. If she gets a few newbie writers to put warnings on their fic, fine by me, but she was mostly preaching to the choir, people who either get squicked by the same things she does or people who *already* warn for content and/or do address the topic seriously *within the context of the characters' universe* (which doesn't necessarily mean the same as real life).

But you know, Flowers in the Attic, there's no warning on that and when I read it years ago, I had no idea that's what it was till I read it. And lots of other pro stuff that treats incest as erotic (Anne Rice) or treats it as nothing unusual (Robert Heinlein who wrote his books when? 40s? 50s? 60s?) and lots and lots of bodice rippers that I read back in the early 70s which routinely raped a sometimes underage heroine who of course then fell immediately in love with the rapist/hero (talk about a way more twisted message to send to girls/women than anything I've seen in fanfic). The only difference with fanfic is there's so much available for *free*, don't have to pay for it so anyone, no matter what age can get to it *somewhere* on the net. But the only solution for that is baby-proofing the net and then we're back to everyone posting cat macros all day long.

But...I think that pro writing somehow gets validated for the mainstream because it's been vetted in a way by an editor, a publisher, they've invested money in it and then you have to *pay* to read it so that somehow gives it a legitimacy that fanfic doesn't get. Somehow having that editor and publisher and all that money to print the book validates the same topics that the mainstream will be horrified about in fanfic - like the incest in the Harry Potter books and Anne Rice and Stephen King and other very popular authors who write about the same things that fanfic addresses and they don't all do it realistically - some romanticize it and eroticize it but that money makes it legit and the mainstream accepts it.

Okay, I'll stop being thinky now and do some work. :)

the only solution for that is baby-proofing the net and then we're back to everyone posting cat macros all day long.

If PETA hasn't had a hissy fit about cat macros yet, I'm sure they'll get around to it eventually.

Which leaves us with nothing but smiley faces.

Then we can do lolspiders (http://www.cartoonlabs.com/comics/index.php?show=joytech&date=2007-06-11)!

:):):):):):):):):):)

(alice is an old geezer who only does old school ascii smiley faces)

you know, i haven't touched a single aspect of this entire debate with a ten-foot pole because i think it's boring, but the deal with that post: that was someone trying to throw her weight around professionally in the neighborhood of her hobby. and as someone who shares a professional neighborhood with that person (different field, one that is MUCH more kicked around by fan fiction, for what it's worth) i found that insulting on a professional level. fandom's a fucking hobby, man. trying to bring your work into it is stupid no matter what you do, but when you do what she does, it's actually kind of insulting to your work. i said so somewhere at the end of her comments, i'm sure i'll live to regret it.

have always taken with a grain of salt any post to a fannish forum in which the poster feels the need to present credentials. I'm hardly pure in this respect, but I try to avoid those posts.

Egregious crimes against wireless communications technology are my only exception. ;)

A very real part of me thinks that the essay is meant more as a guide to those that *do* want to work with more realism than trying to make a point that all of us should gently move away from our lighthearted hooker fics and romantic aliens-made-them-do-it.

That's how I took it - and I'm trying to get better at reading all meta this way, as an "if you want to be more x, here's how" (which is difficult, since it is sometimes presented as "authors who do x should be taken out back and shot" - I'm thinking mainly of characterization issues here). I strongly believe that people should be able to write whatever they want and take whatever tone they desire, as long as they don't mind me hitting the back button whenever I deem appropriate. What I *do* have a problem with is individuals who are therefore quick to judge me as prudish/bitchy/close-minded. I think it's the same issue that always comes up in conversations about squicks - the difference between someone saying "I think Wincest is really awesome and everyone should read it!" and someone saying "Anyone who is offended or creeped out by the idea of two brothers having sex needs to get over themselves" (not a direct quote, deliberately using an example from a fandom I don't actually follow).

I think the vast majority of authors *are* what I'd call 'responsible', in the sense that either they write about 'serious' issues in a realistic way, or they're honest with themselves and their audiences about what isn't strictly realistic. Frankly, I always go into a story looking for something that I can't find in real life, be it aliens or mpreg or naked John Sheppard. When I think of 'irresponsibility' in fandom, what comes to mind are not fics, but instances when people have been... dismissive, I suppose, of others' concerns. 'Responsibility' comes in the form of saying (either explicitly, or by *not* explicitly saying the opposite) "I know that there are women in fandom who were raped by a teacher and therefore are offended by humorous [student]/[teacher] fics, and I'll respect their right to be offended as long as they respect my right to continue writing them."

I'm also skeptical of anyone who thinks they have *zero* squicks or subject matter intolerance, because I believe that everyone has a breaking point (I'm actually thinking of the part in Freedom's Just Another Word... where Rodney says and what if it were your mother instead, would you still). And I agree that 'mainstream' isn't a great barometer of 'normal' or 'acceptable' - I don't even want get started on that, but just, yes. Basically, I think that we'll never *all* agree on the same line between 'moral' and 'immoral', but - and this was really what I took away from that meta - it's always good to have a reminder that others have a different line, and a reminder of why that may be. Whatever flaws there may have been in her argument, I thought it was calmly and eloquently presented, which is more than I can say for some of the dissenting views, sadly.

(p.s., I don't think I've ever been offended by something you said, and I think this post was also well-presented. and may I suggest this list (http://siegeofangels.livejournal.com/275631.html) to take your mind off of the drama? it's how I spent my afternoon. and, uh, sorry that this got long.)

Four words, that's all I have to add:
Flowers In the Attic

*smirks* God bless V.C. Andrews for hitting many of us in a formative phase of our early adolescence.

*hee* Yes, indeed. Though I could never properly get into the Flowers series because the confinement in the attic brought out my claustrophobia (which gets triggered by both physical confinement and authoritarianism/abuse of power) and so I never even finished the first book. Still, it made an impression, and in my own personal youthful fictional/fantasy world, there are several siblings who are rather closer than is usual.

Oh! We must not forget the Bronte siblings, Branwell and his sisters, and their published output. Wuthering Heights especially is an intensely incestuous book.

For that matter, the entire Gothic literary genre pulsates with incest, both literal and metaphorical. Wikipedia even has an entire article entitled "Incest in popular culture" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incest_in_popular_culture), which starts out "Incest is a somewhat popular topic in English erotic fiction; there are entire collections and websites devoted solely to this genre, with an entire genre of pornographic pulp fiction known as 'incest novels'."

Is this where I put my disclaimers? (1) Parent/child incest, or intergenerational incest in general, squicks me, (2) sibling incest, or same generation incest, is a minor kink, and (3) I'm an only child, so I don't have those "ick, you're talking about my brother/sister" issues.

And that's undoubtedly way more information than you ever wanted. But I've got a cat sleeping on my lap and I'm between fics, so you get deluged.

I think part of the problem I have with the article (don't know whether this is true of you or not) is that it seems to be indicating that we should not write anything uncomfortable. Leaving aside the question of 'uncomfortable for whom,' it strikes me as ignoring the notion of art imitating life. Yes, what we write can be unpleasant. And yes, so can life. Should we all avoid writing something like a murder fic in case the family of a murder victim picks it up and is unpleasantly reminded of bad events? I would say no. Blurbs and summaries make it clear what content can be expected and it's up to the reader to choose whether to proceed or not.

I also have issues with the term 'authorial responsibility.' It seems far too one sided to me - why should the author take all responsibility? Is the reader merely a hapless puppet of the author, forced to read what they write? No. As a reader, I don't blame anyone else for what I read (or what I choose to do with the information I learn as I read). You think for yourself, you act for yourself. Yeah, powerful words can sway you, but ultimately? You have to step up to the plate and say 'I chose to do this.'

It makes me think of those court cases where authors of books are sued because someone has used their book as a springboard for a crime (the suggestion being that the accused individual would never have thought of performing the crime had they not read the book). This fails on so many levels - the fact that the author came up with the idea and yet hasn't killed anyone, so why does the reader get an out, the fact that an author can be sued for writing negative things but no one claims authorial responsibility is to blame when a book makes someone decide to do something for the better rather than the worse.

As a point of interest, I remember reading how a man had read an Agatha Christie book and, like the villain of the book, decided to kill someone with the poison thalium, as it was a rare drug and hard to detect. This man did attempt to murder someone - but was caught, because the nurse who was attending the person he tried to kill had read the very same book and recognised the symptoms of the poisoning from it. Make the authorial responsibility issue look a little different, doesn't it?

And I won't talk about authorial intent, because that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

You think for yourself, you act for yourself. Yeah, powerful words can sway you, but ultimately? You have to step up to the plate and say 'I chose to do this.'

But there's tons of people out there who *will not* do this. They have no idea how to change the channel on the TV or hit the back button or put down the book that has a topic they don't like - instead they want it removed from the possibility of their viewing it (this was WFI's real goal, although they'd deny it, what they wanted, what they achieved was to have something they objected to removed from their view, didn't do a thing to stop a single pedophile from harming a single child but they no longer have to look at it and so they can pretend they "saved the children").

These people are the mainstream and they think that the world should be designed to their liking (often with the "think of the children!" as a refrain to justify their liking). These are the same people who think that gay people shouldn't be allowed to kiss in public because it offends them and they don't want their children to see it (because you know, seeing it would instantly infect the child with teh gayness!)

Some of these mainstream people are right here in fandom too, some of them even write slash while claiming that the guys aren't gay, it's just that one guy and they continue to be extremely homophobic while they do this. People can do amazing mental gymnastics sometimes.

ummm, yeah, I said I was going to do work now, didn't I? :)

But there's tons of people out there who *will not* do this. They have no idea how to change the channel on the TV or hit the back button or put down the book that has a topic they don't like - instead they want it removed from the possibility of their viewing it

This still strikes me as a refusal to be responsible. Rather than take responsibility for what you watch, you instead blame whoever put it out there for corrupting you (although as Jenn pointed out, this stuff gets out and about because the mainstream want it).

People can do amazing mental gymnastics sometimes.

*nods sadly* Don't I know it. I would disagree that these people are the mainstream, though - often those who shout loudest are not the biggest. They're simply the people who have the loudest opinion about it and so much goes their way because they force the issue and other people let it pass, either through disinterest, some agreement or to try and keep the peace. I think this just encourages people to be less tolerant of things being different to what they are used to. It also encourages the attitude that people can shape the world to be how they like it without taking into account that they don't speak for everyone. I completely defend the right of anyone to have whichever views they want on a topic (conservative, liberal, inbetween), but I do have issues with people forcing their views on others.

what they achieved was to have something they objected to removed from their view, didn't do a thing to stop a single pedophile from harming a single child but they no longer have to look at it and so they can pretend they "saved the children").

This? This scares me. Because it suggests that people with this sort of attitude are less interested in making the world a better place than making it *look* like it's a better place. It's better to have garbage in the street than the backyard, because at least if it's in the street, then it will be dealt with and cleaned up.

I have no interest what-so-ever in having anything to do with the mainstream in any way, shape, or form.

Also, I must say, anything that I have ever seen in fandom, I have seen in established literature times five. I didn't find fic, and suddenly discover naughty things. If anything, this is tamer than my ridiculous Poppy Z. Brite/Marilyn Manson phase when I was 15 and stupid.

I think the problem emerges in that I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take away from it. Unlike a great many people I didn't feel that I was being judged by heatherley for my not so secret appreciation for the Winchester or Petrelli brothers. I read it as a reference post should I need it in the future. I do appear to be in the minority though. ~~Oh, maybe I can claim to be oppressed because I was not oppressed by her.~~

b.) realism in fiction is right up there with realism in art. When someone can put into terms how cubism or Picasso or post-modern *anything* is actually a dead-on photograph of the world, I will totally take it back. But seriously. What does fiction have to do with reality? The only thing I've ever asked of fiction is that they use good characterization and please stop using wonton. Otherwise, go crazy. I may not read it if it doesn't fall in my specific set of interests, but diversity leads to categories like mpreg, and really, what would we be without mpreg? In a sad place, I wager.

A terribly sad place! I take realism in fic not to mean "could this happen in real life" rather, "given the background of the character/universe etc, am I expecting my readers to have to suspend all disbelief to believe in X". Take Crimes Against Humanity as an example of making something 'unrealistic' work - because you have taken aspects of the canon characteristics and extrapolated it to get to point X there is no suspension of disbelief needed to imagine John and Rodney as dangerous, dangerous killers. It's not cracked, it's really cool AU.

That's one of the things I love about SGA (and to a lesser extent HP), the ball park is wide open to you as a writer and reader because virtually nothing is beyond reason.

not terribly interested in how mainstream sees me.

Exactly. Jeez, even if all I wrote was gen fiction I'd still be unnaturally attached to a piece of pop media. Mainstream acceptance? Never gonna happen. I don't understand why people craving that acceptance don't just get over themselves or, if they really want mainstream validation, go and write some original fiction.

My two most popular fic ever involve a.) serial killing mass murders taking over Atlantis

[gets a little dreamy-eyed]

Your Atlantis Project John is certainly no angel, either, and I loves him for it so.

[pats Jenn's collection of adorable psychos. From a very safe distance. Rodney was still looking for subjects for Carson's gene therapy tests, last time I looked.]

The caveats and disclaimers ran a lot longer ~~than my interest at this time~~ my authorized break, so I shouldn't really be commenting. I liked your Hannibal and American Psycho examples, and will raise you the Saw movie trilogy.

[goes back to pondering AUs of "Crimes Against Humanity" in which a Colonel Sheppard schleps everything they know about the Wraith over to the Crimes-verse so versions of themselves unhampered by rules or consciences can finish the anti-Wraith virus. mmmmmm... Atlantis would be so adorably confused.]

Here via

metafandom.

It's very--disconcerting. I'm not even close to the more extreme ends of fandom in terms of what I write, and I'm *still* feeling vaguely unsettled by the idea. There's something very uncomfortable in the idea that we'll turn on each other, in groups, as individuals, to claim our normality by condemning them (whoever 'them' may be) for the sake of a nebulous "mainstream". That we allow those outside us to set the rules we are to follow to be accepted. Whatever the hell accepted is supposed to be.

God yes. I'm protective of fannish spaces and this whole debate has just made me really twitchy because when we start censoring each other we start alienating each other. Fandom needs a very particular kind of forum to function and so much of that is based on free dialog with each other. And I admit I privilege that over just about anything. Maybe other people have other priorities and maybe this is a conversation that needs to be had, but I don't know. It makes me nervous. I don't want anything from the mainstream except that they stay far away from us.

Anyway, you said all that in the part I quoted, except better and more concisely. So thanks.

Here via metafandom, and coffee or not, I like what you're saying here, and just want to say, definitely WORD! And YES!

And definitely! *yes*

Goes to read comments and think more--but I especially like your point about mainstream popular genre novels--and not only that but look at the freaking movies that become major big time! (excluding PotC of course, snicker, which is just luverly!)

There's something very uncomfortable in the idea that we'll turn on each other, in groups, as individuals, to claim our normality by condemning them (whoever 'them' may be) for the sake of a nebulous "mainstream".

It's an unfortunate fact of life, though, right? That's what makes the Geek Hierarchy (http://www.brunching.com/geekhierarchy.html) joke possible. "Well, I may be a freak, but at least IIII don't write mpreg," etc.

Anyway. I agree with your post.

Here via

metafandom

I swore to myself that I wasn't going to post on this topic anymore after ranting last night, because the whole thing alternates between frustrating and saddening me no end, but here's one last hurrah.

To be perfectly honest, I think we already have turned on each other, though it actually doesn't have much to do with the 'mainstream' at all. The spectre of mainstream society coming down on us like a tonne of bricks is a convenient bogeyman, one I've used myself. What strikethrough has actually highlighted is that there is not just a gap, but a gaping big chasm between members of the community between those who write the more extreme material and those who, for whatever reason, find it to be extremely problematic to the point where they feel that, in good conscience, they must object.

I admit that I fall into the latter camp. My real issue, and I'd tentatively say that this is the issue most often expressed by others, lies with chan where there is a power imbalance, written as porn. It's not an issue of warning labels, it's that it's actually being written and, indeed, lauded, because I've yet to have it justified to me as something other than porn featuring children.

There have been justifications put forward, yes, but they've thus far rung hollow to me. "Because I wanted to." Because you wanted to do something doesn't necessarily mean that you should. You're not actually telling my why you should. "It's pure fantasy" is another one. I know that it's fantasy, but it doesn't really make me feel any better about your motives for writing it. "It's an important exploration of female sexuality" is probably the most recent. That, to me, implies that the only thing wrong with the way the topic is being addressed in the story is who is doing the addressing, and if you take that thought further, we eventually end up back at the idea of male sexuality being inherently evil.

So is the conundrum is thus: I need to have the publication of the material justified to me, not to cater to mainstream society but because I find the idea sickening, but the people who are writing it feel that they have already done so. Worse, I'm not actually sure if there is something that I'd consider to be justification for it, and some people don't think there needs to be at all.

We're at an impasse. One side is going to have to give. Judging by the sheer volume of posts that have come out to denounce

heatherly (particularly as popularised on

metafandom), that most of those discussions where similar sentiments are expressed are locked (can’t say I blame them – there is a lot of vitriol flying about) and that people have remained silent on the issue largely up until now, it'll be the ones who find it problematic. If being a fangirl means that I have to support material I can't come up with some way to justify, then I guess I'm not actually a fangirl anymore. I know some others feel the same.

Perhaps it really is time to move on; the times have changed and I haven't changed with them. Yes, yes, I won't let the door hit me on the way out. I just wonder: when and how did fandom become primarily about the porn and the boundary pushing?

I'm personally of the opinion that you should write what you want to write knowing some people will agree with it, some people will disagree with it, and some people may give you a hard time because of it. If it's what *you* want to write, who cares? It came from some part of you, not 'them' and it obviously needed to get out to be fully expressed. Now that you've expressed it, you can either move on or not.

As for consequences, I see it two ways: 1) consequences towards others - if you put up your disclaimer that your story will contain X and people read it and then complain that it contained X, that's their own personal consequence for reading it. 2) If you are hoping to be professionally published some day for your fic, and you know people will link you back to your fan fic and judge you based on that, that is your own personal consequence to deal with.

If you can cope with these things, go on and post. If you can't, maybe you need to rethink that whole posting thing.

its damn fine tasty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonton

Yes. Goddammit. All of the above.

Since when did acceptance by the mythical mainstream have anything to do with why we do it? Maybe I missed something, but I thought we wrote it because it was a funky idea that occurred to us that we're never gonna see on the screen.

There's something very uncomfortable in the idea that we'll turn on each other, in groups, as individuals, to claim our normality by condemning them (whoever 'them' may be) for the sake of a nebulous "mainstream".

I've been on the receiving end of some "hmm, wouldn't it be interesting if Child Services got a look at your hard drive" threats since Strikethrough - it's frankly despicable

Profile

seperis

Page Summary

Quotes

If you don't send me feedback, I will sob uncontrollably for hours on end, until finally, in a fit of depression, I slash my wrists and bleed out on the bathroom floor. My death will be on your heads. Murderers
. -- Unknown, on feedback
BTS List
That's why he goes bad, you know -- all the good people hit him on the head or try to shoot him and constantly mistrust him, while there's this vast cohort of minions saying, We wouldn't hurt you, Lex, and we'll give you power and greatness and oh so much sex...
Wow. That was scary. Lex is like Jesus in the desert.
-- pricklyelf, on why Lex goes bad
LJ
Obi-Wan has a sort of desperate, pathetic patience in this movie. You can just see it in his eyes: "My padawan is a psychopath, and no one will believe me; I'm barely keeping him under control and expect to wake up any night now to find him standing over my bed with a knife!"
-- Teague, reviewing "Star Wars: Attack of the Clones"
LJ
Beth: god, why do i have so many beads?
Jenn: Because you are an addict.
Jenn: There are twelve step programs for this.
Beth: i dunno they'd work, might have to go straight for the electroshock.
Jenn: I'm not sure that helps with bead addiction.
Beth: i was thinking more to demagnitize my credit card.
-- hwmitzy and seperis, on bead addiction
AIM, 12/24/2003
I could rape a goat and it will DIE PRETTIER than they write.
-- anonymous, on terrible writing
AIM, 2/17/2004
In medical billing there is a diagnosis code for someone who commits suicide by sea anenemoe.
-- silverkyst, on wtf
AIM, 3/25/2004
Anonymous: sorry. i just wanted to tell you how much i liked you. i'd like to take this to a higher level if you're willing
Eleveninches: By higher level I hope you mean email.
-- eleveninches and anonymous, on things that are disturbing
LJ, 4/2/2004
silverkyst: I need to not be taking molecular genetics.
silverkyst: though, as a sidenote, I did learn how to eviscerate a fruit fly larvae by pulling it's mouth out by it's mouthparts today.
silverkyst: I'm just nowhere near competent in the subject material to be taking it.
Jenn: I'd like to thank you for that image.
-- silverkyst and seperis, on more wtf
AIM, 1/25/2005
You know, if obi-wan had just disciplined the boy *properly* we wouldn't be having these problems. Can't you just see yoda? "Take him in hand, you must. The true Force, you must show him."
-- Issaro, on spanking Anakin in his formative years
LJ, 3/15/2005
Aside from the fact that one person should never go near another with a penis, a bottle of body wash, and a hopeful expression...
-- Summerfling, on shower sex
LJ, 7/22/2005
It's weird, after you get used to the affection you get from a rabbit, it's like any other BDSM relationship. Only without the sex and hot chicks in leather corsets wielding floggers. You'll grow to like it.
-- revelininsanity, on my relationship with my rabbit
LJ, 2/7/2006
Smudged upon the near horizon, lapine shadows in the mist. Like a doomsday vision from Watership Down, the bunny intervention approaches.
-- cpt_untouchable, on my addition of The Fourth Bunny
LJ, 4/13/2006
Rule 3. Chemistry is kind of like bondage. Some people like it, some people like reading about or watching other people doing it, and a large number of people's reaction to actually doing the serious stuff is to recoil in horror.
-- deadlychameleon, on class
LJ, 9/1/2007
If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, then Fan Fiction is John Cusack standing outside your house with a boombox.
-- JRDSkinner, on fanfiction
Twitter
I will unashamedly and unapologetically celebrate the joy and the warmth and the creativity of a community of people sharing something positive and beautiful and connective and if you don’t like it you are most welcome to very fuck off.
-- Michael Sheen, on Good Omens fanfic
Twitter, 6/19/2019
Adding for Mastodon.
-- Jenn, traceback
Fosstodon, 11/6/2022

Credit

Base style: Open Spaces by seperis
Theme: New Green by seperis

November 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 2022

Page generated Jan. 25th, 2026 02:47 am

Profile

Links

Page Summary

Quotes

Credit