sv unsafe thought

So it's not about Lex, but just a quick thought.



Correct me if I'm wrong.

Not molestation. Not rape. Not even, to me here, so YMMV, the equivalent of date rape.

RedK is mind-altering, but doesn't affect Clark's sense of right and wrong so much as his interest in *being* good. He *took it off*, season three, ep one, to call home, then put it back on. Freely. And angstily. And prettily. Christ, so prettily.

This actually a point with me for one reason and one reason only--The Slut Scandals of Metropolis, circa summer 2003? I hold him personally responsible for that. Which is a lot of the reason I learned to like him more and have, in fact, gotten around to mostly forgiving him for Bound, now that I'm thinking about it and not waving my fist at AlMiles in blind rage. There's a huge post in that about how I think Clark sees good versus evil in himself and strangely enough, in Lex, but it's boring and me-ish and really, really annoying.

I have coffee. And nakidish Clark. Happy place.

Comments

[linzeestyle.livejournal.com]

See, I see it as more like the SV version of Angelus - it takes away the things that keep him from just being a creature of desires; want, take, have. It removes his ability to choose right over wrong, his empathy - the things that make Clark, Clark.

For me the Metropolis thing was entirely Clark's fault because he *chose* to put the ring on - and continue to put the ring on - knowing damn well what it would make him into, simply because he didn't want to feel remorse and guilt and all the nasty things that come with having a conscience. Whereas in this episode it was done against his will; it's fairly safe to assume Clark wouldn't have put on the Red K had he been given the option. So for me, the date rape metaphor came in the sense that he was slipped the Red K without his knowledge because Alicia thought it would make him more fun, rather than in the whole Red K = Drug metaphor.

Er...sorry. :cough: On the plus side, this episode gave me a lot to think about - which isn't something SV has done in a while, if you don't count my constant musings on the Many and Creative Ways Lana Could Be Removed From The Show.

Linzee

[seperis.livejournal.com]

For me the Metropolis thing was entirely Clark's fault because he *chose* to put the ring on - and continue to put the ring on - knowing damn well what it would make him into, simply because he didn't want to feel remorse and guilt and all the nasty things that come with having a conscience. Whereas in this episode it was done against his will; it's fairly safe to assume Clark wouldn't have put on the Red K had he been given the option. So for me, the date rape metaphor came in the sense that he was slipped the Red K without his knowledge because Alicia thought it would make him more fun, rather than in the whole Red K = Drug metaphor.

I would agree with that entirely if he hadn't taken off the ring voluntarily during Exile. He did it, then angsted, then put it back on and went on his badly socialized way, which is pretty much my only sticking point with him on that.

I agree, in a way--it removes his inhibitions, but it seems to change what exactly the inhibitions *are* that it wants to remove every time. So yeah, while Alicia forced the ring on him, there was nothing, including himeslf, that stopped him from taking it off. If he could do it in Metropolis, he could definitely have done it here.

Which makes Phoenix, frankly, very, very creepy. Not to mention Red, in retrospect.

[linzeestyle.livejournal.com]

I agree, in a way--it removes his inhibitions, but it seems to change what exactly the inhibitions *are* that it wants to remove every time. So yeah, while Alicia forced the ring on him, there was nothing, including himeslf, that stopped him from taking it off. If he could do it in Metropolis, he could definitely have done it here.

That's true - and I wonder if part of that is bad continuity on the part of AlMiles. Because from the way Clark freaked out after having the necklace removed in Unsafe, it gave the distinct impression that he was just then regaining control; that if he could have removed the Red K beforehand, he would have.

Of course, try as I might, I can't find a way to reconcile that with Exile's version...because as you said, he was very much in control of the ring, to the point where he was also able to destroy it at the end. Perhaps the problem is, then, getting Red K Clark to the point where he is willing to take off the ring - where someone with no conscience is willing to get one.

Linzee

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Of course, try as I might, I can't find a way to reconcile that with Exile's version...because as you said, he was very much in control of the ring, to the point where he was also able to destroy it at the end. Perhaps the problem is, then, getting Red K Clark to the point where he is willing to take off the ring - where someone with no conscience is willing to get one.

What ends up bothering me most, and today is the first time I sat down and talked about it--if Exile is proof he can take it off, and then put it back on afterward, then that makes both Red and Phoenix creepy in an entirely new way--while in Red, I can almost go with, it was a brand new thing to him and so he wan'st quite able to think to get the ring off--in Phoenix, he tried to kill his dad, one ep after proving the ring didn't control his ability to realize he was doing something *wrong*. At any time before or during that fight, he could have taken that thing off and saved them both a severe headache.

I'm trying to figure out what AlMiles is trying to say about father and son relationships with that.

[linzeestyle.livejournal.com]

while in Red, I can almost go with, it was a brand new thing to him and so he wan'st quite able to think to get the ring off--in Phoenix, he tried to kill his dad, one ep after proving the ring didn't control his ability to realize he was doing something *wrong*.

But I don't think it changes the fact that when he's on Red K, he doesn't *care* if he's doing something wrong, because the things in him that feel remorse and love are supressed. The only explanation I can come up with for his removal of the ring in Exile, without saying completely that he never loses himself to the Red K, is the idea that it was causing him pain - the scarring and his reaction to it when he put on the ring.

It's difficult, because while Exile is my absolute favorite of any of the interpretations of Clark-on-Red-K they've had, it's also the most inconsistent with the other times he's been under it's influence. In Exile the metaphor was a drug, right down to it flowing through his veins when he puts back on the ring and takes another 'hit.' In contrast, other episodes (Red, Rush, and now Unsafe) have painted it as his sort of immoral, pleasure-seeking alter ego, with him not having the control to take it off and having to rely on someone else to do so.

I'm trying to figure out what AlMiles is trying to say about father and son relationships with that.

It's especially interesting, given how often they want to contrast Johnathan and Clark to Lionel and Lex, with the Kents as the "ideal" Lex wants so badly to be like.

Linzee

[seperis.livejournal.com]

But I don't think it changes the fact that when he's on Red K, he doesn't *care* if he's doing something wrong, because the things in him that feel remorse and love are supressed. The only explanation I can come up with for his removal of the ring in Exile, without saying completely that he never loses himself to the Red K, is the idea that it was causing him pain - the scarring and his reaction to it when he put on the ring.

I'll--*tentatively*--leave this one until I watch the ep again, but it looked like, from memory, that he took it off so he *could* call home. I'm not saying it doens't suppress his better instincts, like a drug would, that I am in total agreement with. What bothers me is that Exile tacitly extended teh idea he was aware of what its effects were and took it off to make that phone call home. Or rather, he took it off, made the call, then put it back on. Hmm.

Interesting, though. I'll have to watch again adn see the sequence. I think, hoenstly, that AlMiles really had no idea what kind of precedent they were setting with that five second bit. *g*

[linzeestyle.livejournal.com]

Oh, he definitely took it off so he could call home - but he did it at a moment when the scar was flaring up, causing him pain, and for that one particular instant being Red K Clark was not "fun" anymore. Likewise, he shattered the ring after BoDuke's speech and tussle left him bruised and tired. Maybe that's what it takes for him to take the ring off - for him to be in a particularly uncomfortable/miserable situation, where even Red K Clark is no longer enjoying himself.

I think, hoenstly, that AlMiles really had no idea what kind of precedent they were setting with that five second bit. *g*

Heh - and of course, we've never had to say *that* before. *g*

Linzee

[harriet-spy.livejournal.com]

if he hadn't taken off the ring voluntarily during Exile

Well, but it was after an exceptionally violent and painful physical reaction that seems to signal (even without listening to the ep commentary) that Clark's superabilities were working to throw off its effects.

Clark didn't seem to have any ability to stop himself in "Red," either. I don't think it's that implausible that (a) after the painful physical reaction or (b) after an extended exposure, he regains enough will to have a chance to take the ring off. Neither of those applied here.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

I'm thinking on this. Whether RedK is the equivalent of alcohol or roofies. If it's alcohol, then I can't excuse, and whether pain was the motivator or not, he was able to take it off. Though the exposuse angle is interesting, I also wonder if multiple uses of the ring should/might also bring up a certain ability to distance himself from it enough to think to get it off. If it's roofies--I don't buy that. On the other hand, the show isn't consistent on what it does to him either--I'm still boggling at Kal wanting to *get married*. That just makes no sense at all.

Clark didn't seem to have any ability to stop himself in "Red," either.

In Red, and this is just me, thinking, it's a brand new, totally differnt thing. It makes me wonder how long it took him to connect his personality transplant to the ring's effects, too. Hre seemed to get it, and Kal did *not* want to take it off for that reason.

I guess my biggest problem is that I get caught between the differing effects--at least Red and Exile and theother one in season two--Rush?--had a level of consistency in reaction, even if Exile he seemed somewhat more self-aware of his own changes. It was all Bacchus, all the time, more or less. This one just--it felt like it was off in reaction. I'm just not yet able to buy the roofies theory of RedK yet.

[disprove.livejournal.com]

learned to like him more and have, in fact, gotten around to mostly forgiving him for Bound, now that I'm thinking about it and not waving my fist at AlMiles in blind rage.

I want to like Clark, I do. But I can't still get over Bound. Heeeelp meeeee, I still wanna be a Clexer, dammit.

There's a huge post in that about how I think Clark sees good versus evil in himself and strangely enough, in Lex, but it's boring and me-ish and really, really annoying

I wouldn't mind reading it, honest. If you don't feel like writing it though, it's okay. Nowadays, my knee-jerk reaction to Clark being kind to anyone else but Lex is "Jackass! Double standards! Hypocrisy! Stupidity! Jackass!" and I want that mantra to stop.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I can do a short version, but ti's going to be choppy and I really want to work in why I think Red K si the reason Clark got judgemental, but man, that would take more concentration than I have.

I think--and this is a very loose way of going about it--that Clark holds Lex to the same standard he holds himself to. Wait. This is actually kind of strange. In all of Smallville land, Clakr forgives at teh drop of a hat. Or they die or go to a mental asylum. Either/or. But there you have it. To me, and this is only when I'm feeling particulary bitter with him, he seems to think that *everyone but Lex* is actually not all that good or moral (whatever word you want to use here). Kind of like an idiot child sort of tolerance. Which amuses me when I associate it with Lionel. So when they fuck up, they can be forgiven, as They Are Dumb and Know Not What They Do. Whereas, amusingly, with Lex--he treats Lex, every time, like he deliberately *went out there* just to be *deliberately and on purpose* bad and make Clark mad. Somewhat like Clark, I think, views himself and his own escapades.

It's really, really *strange*.

So, for Bound--and this is my interpretation only--Clark's pissy with Lex because Lex is, to him, acting like Clakr in a RedK binge, using people, etc, or equating Lex's random sex to Kal's way of using people and tossing them aside. Which isn't an entirely unfair observation to make, from his pov. And it says uncomfortable things about Clark, if he's equating Lex with himself in the morality department, such as--wait. Lex is *not* under the influence of a magic red ring, yet he does this! Does it mean I could? Which mixed with AlMiles taking a very St. Paul approach to sex, is--well. Actually, it's really, really funny.

*grins* Again, ten years from now, Clark will sit up and bang his head on something and sa, "oh God, I lectured Lex on *sexual morality*?"

It really never stops being funny.

[forked.livejournal.com]

This show's view on morality baffles me. In Exile, Clark whores around without actually having sex (at least not with girls)- and that made sense because he's gay. But in 'Unsafe', I'd say he was clearly interested in having sex with Alicia, but before it goes that far he proposes they get married.

So it's like, he didn't want to have meaningless sex and he didn't want to have sex outside the sanctity of marriage and WOW those Kent platitudes seem to affect even RedK Clark. Except for the fact he had no problem running around and robbing banks and almost killing his dad.

I think this show might have issues when it comes to sex- I think Clark does too.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

I'm still blown away Kal's idea of darkness and rebellin is to *get married*.

Coem the hell *on*.

*shakes head*

[fyrdrakken]

Unless he was hoping to breed little Krypto-hybrid superbabies and rule the world with them, anyway.

[sv-heaven.livejournal.com]

Purely hypothesis as I have not seen "Exile", "Bound" or "Phoenix" - could AIMiles be trying to convey that if Clark takes RedK by himself/willinging (e.g. putting on a ring) then he could control its effects and have the power to resist the influence of the ring by taking it off whereas if someone else forces RedK on him he is powerless and not able to shake off its effects ~ hence why some people could view the Alicia incident as date rape.

What ends up bothering me most, and today is the first time I sat down and talked about it--if Exile is proof he can take it off, and then put it back on afterward, then that makes both Red and Phoenix creepy in an entirely new way--while in Red, I can almost go with, it was a brand new thing to him and so he wan'st quite able to think to get the ring off--in Phoenix, he tried to kill his dad, one ep after proving the ring didn't control his ability to realize he was doing something *wrong*. At any time before or during that fight, he could have taken that thing off and saved them both a severe headache.

I'm trying to figure out what AlMiles is trying to say about father and son relationships with that.

Again purely hypothesis as I havent seen "Red" either (I know, what kind of SV fan am I,lol - I tend to watch snatches of episodes when I can).
I think maybe AIMiles is trying to convey here might be the otherside to a father/son relationship irrespective of how homely and loving they are like the Kents. Especially when you have an angsty Alien as a child who is trying to express himself but restricted due to his parents views of life.
Personally, I think part of Clark resents his father for not letting him be free of his inhibitions or be like other kids, remember the very first episode of SV where Jonathan was telling him he couldn't join the football team, which ended up with him being the scarecrow, etc. And we still see this resentment in other episodes when Jonathan tells Clark he is not allowed to do things e.g. be friends with a Luthor, let people in on his secret, etc. I know Jonathan is only trying to protect his son but on the other hand this has also endangered Clark and alienated him from him friends. And maybe to Clark in "Phoenix" where he was under the influence of RedK, killing his dad was not wrong cos Jonathan was a treat to his present self - free uninhibited Clark (I so hope I am making sense here and haven't gone off the tangent)

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Purely hypothesis as I have not seen "Exile", "Bound" or "Phoenix" - could AIMiles be trying to convey that if Clark takes RedK by himself/willinging (e.g. putting on a ring) then he could control its effects and have the power to resist the influence of the ring by taking it off whereas if someone else forces RedK on him he is powerless and not able to shake off its effects ~ hence why some people could view the Alicia incident as date rape.

Now that is interesting. Huh. I never conisdered that.

Intersting thoughs. I'll be thinking on this bit for awhile. Thanks!

Happy Birthday!!

[ender24]

Dear Jenn

I wish you from germany a big Happy Birthday!!!
and lots and lots of gifts!!
btw, now that I have a job (for about 3 month), and not being a poor student anymore, I still remember my promise that I gave you a long time ago, because you are still the best SV author I have ever had the honor to come across!!
I cannot promise you something big, but is there something small you would like from Germany??? I would like to buy you a gift!!
So just tell me!
And more of your WIP, (please more Pretty, when you are mine!!)
I even check your lj during work, so you better give me your wishes fast, as I might loose my job because of being addicted to your stories ;=))

Re: Happy Birthday!!

[seperis.livejournal.com]

*hgus* Thanks!

Writing quickly as I can. And seriously, don't need any gifts. Feedback is always nice, though. *g* So thankyou *so* much for the thought.

*huggles* Congrats on the job!

Re: Happy Birthday!!

[fyrdrakken]

Hah, your birthday, and I missed it! And I think at one point recently I visited the birthday notification thing and saw yours was coming up soon, too!

Anyway, hope it was a happy one!

[taraljc.livejournal.com]

In Metropolis, didn't Clark only evee take the ring off, tho, when Jor'El made the brand hurt so bad he had to, to escape the pain? Wasn't that Jor'el's way to trying to bitch slap his son from the great beyond?

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Thta's one way of looking at it. i--really need to watch again and not just read my own recaps to clarify my memory here.

*stares at DVDs* I just know if I watdch that,I have to watch Asylum and Shattered and I will wail to heaven. It willl hurt. Will wait for weapons-grade chocolate.

BDSM and RedK!Clark

[flamingsword.livejournal.com]

You guys are obviously not experience members of the domination community. That speaks of your being well adjusted.
Since I'm not well adjusted, here are my two cents: Clark doesn't want to want the things he wants. He wants to be made to do the things he wants to, the illusion that he has no choice. He's mad at Lex a lot because Lex isn't as screwed up as he is - Lex can face his own darkness. But Clark was raised to never admit to being bad the way Lex was raised to never admit to weakness. Their relationship is doomed.

Re: BDSM and RedK!Clark

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Oooh. You have my total attention with that. *Interesting*.

*g* Doomed is such a harsh word. I like "severely fucked up, but with the potential to go mushroom in such interesting and hot ways".

Re: BDSM and RedK!Clark

[flamingsword.livejournal.com]

Well, it has the possibility of going hot if Lex were to find Clark out and "make" him his love-slave, but any relationship in which head games play a part both parties have to be giving informed consent or it won't work. Clark won't acknowledge his desires, so the relationship would wind up going pear-shaped.

Again I say: doomed. Clark could be tricked into getting informed, of course. There are some movies that make the theme of "illusory non-consent" quite explicit. But he'd probably have such a raging hard-on throughout the film that he'd miss most of the content. *smirk*