because it is very early and I'm very awake

[seperis]

The horrible danger of insomnia combined with friendsfriends--God. It's *crack*. I am totally understanding the draw. Currently working on avoiding ep reviews nad spoilers, since I haen't watched The Return yet.

Anyway, while cruising along, I came across an entry--oh, just an entry of SGA squee, pre-episode, mentioning this and that and then, randomly at the end, a sudden diatribe against Joe Flanigan's acting skills. There was generalized horror and repugnance and the usual--weirdly usual, almost rote--discussion of the level of suckitude, so normal I don't even *notice* with any more than a blink.

Huh, I said, and as usual, skimmed and wandered off.

But it being five in the morning, I thought, well. It's fandom, and this is what we do. We sit around dissecting shows, characters, and actors. So I have to ask, because I can--um, what the hell?

I don't pretend to be anything close to an expert on acting, other than hoping Keanu Reeves is given few lines at any given time and a lot of really good shots of him being hot. That's as far as I get on appreciating this nebulous realm of 'good' versus 'bad'. But the fairly constant discussion of Joe Flanigan's lack of talent, lack of emoting, lack of this, lack of that--often paired up, oddly enough, with essays on David Hewlett's brilliance at whatever the poster has watched/did watch/is watching--it really makes me wonder. Otherwise squeeful individuals break into really *sudden* critiques of things like how Joe performed a ten second facial expression during a scene, or lapse into--and this is what's jarring, I'm reading along on meta and halfway through the paragraph just--boom. This sudden really *odd* invective. And at first it was annoying, then I progressed to the shrug/personal taste, then I started to doubt myself and wonder if there was something wrong with *me* that I wasn't climbing on the Joe Sucks At His Job Bandwagon, and progressed to think, wait. Am I sitting here thinking I need to *look* for reasons to critique an actor because half my fandom spends quality time--and a serious number of entries--telling me that he sucks? Was my John bias showing?

Wait, I thought. I like the character of John. The character is played by Joe, who plays the character of John in a way I like. Ergo, I think I like how Joe does his job. I remembered the stuff thepouncer sent me and thought, huh. I liked that, too. That was kind of a relief.

I think at this point, it's just the build-up of seeing it so often--wow, so damned often, Jesus--and seeing it, not always, but a good chunk of the time, in direct contrast to a meta on DH's fantastical talent. Long, long entries on fantastical talent. Long, long entries on fantastical talent and etcetera. And you know, the coolness is there to love the actor. What I can't quite work out is how slamming Joe comes into a essay about how great DH is. Is that--supporting evidence or something? That kind of loses me in wondering what on earth the point is. I'm not sure how repeating in various formats how *much* Joe sucks is somehow going to make the DH adulation more convincing. I mean, I was sort of convinced without it? Then I just got irritated.

So I had this thought. It's a stupid thought, but then, everyone has stupid thoughts and they post them anyway. I was wondering, is there a direct correlation between how dramatic/flamboyant a character is--think McKay, Lex Luthor, Lionel Luthor, Justin Taylor--and the higher incident of actor popularity? I'm thinking of how TW in SV also picked up a lot of flack for being a sucky actor, with the exception of the times he was very flamboyant--Red comes to mind, and the beginning of season three that I can never remember the name of. Or Brian, for that matter in QaF.

Hmm. I feel this weird need to ponder this, but I also feel a real need to clean my bathroom, and neither are getting done at this second, because my greater need is to blankly stare at my flist in hopes I'll get sleepy. I'm just--weirded out by it, I think.

Comments

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

It's just a fan thing, where *Every* *Single* *Protagonist* ever cast is a bad actor. The sidekick (in the frequently comedic role, or as you say a more flamboyant role) is always the much better actor. ALWAYS.

Personally, my opinion is that the sidekick role is frequently the juicier role, and so more can be done with it. Poor JF, his looks keep holding him back from those quirky, meaty roles.

Fans have so many predjuices, it's fascinating. The fact is, we don't actually care about acting ability; we care that we get emotional vulnerability and other moments of emotional intensity on-screen. And we don't particularly worry about wether its coming from great acting abilty or 'oh. my. god. What's my next line. HELP ME.' Both translate on the screen as deep emotional feeling, and that's what makes us very happy.

[clarkangel.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with you there. For JF I think his looks get in the way of him being seen as the actor he is. And that he's so subtle in his acting doesn't help.

And it's really about what makes it click for us individually too. Personally, I've never been drawn to the flamboyant/OTT characters/actors. Even when in like DIE HARD. I loved the bad guy, but he wasn't over the top. He was just awesome and made BW just kinda disappear in comparison.

I've seen eps where it's like OMG RODNEY/WOOBIE I feel so much for him and Me? I got nothing from him. But Sheppard in the scene and his quiet pain, that is what made me teary or FEEL in that moment. So..it's all in what we're looking for to satisfy us too. But I do feel that JF gets the short end of the stick. Which drives me batty at times. But which I've come to realize isn't how everyone feels. Rodney is a LOUD character and his/DH's fans tend to be the same. Just cause they're loud about their JF/SHEP hate, so to speak, doesn't mean they're right or bigger in numbers. So that's how I've come to look at it.

Having my other fave be OMG SO PRETTEH but still get recognition for his talent helps soothe the ache too. LOL

I just wish it didn't have to be that way for Shep/Joe. The need to Dis him for the sake of upbuilding Rodney/DH

Master Thespian says, "ACTING!"

[teenygozer.livejournal.com]

I think you have something there, the idea that people ooh and ah over the flamoyant actors and roles, and their seeming lack of respect of actors who portray their characters in a more low-key way and perhaps naturalistic way. Al Pacino has handed in much more subtle, realistic performances than when he yelled, "HooHA!" in Scent of a Woman , but that role was the one he got the Oscar for. I read a review of All the King's Men that said Seah Penn would undoubtedly be up for the Oscar in his scenery-chewing role in a very bad movie. Low-key actors who hand in solid, believable performances don't often get recognized or praised for the job they did. They make it look too easy.

I believe in Shep, he comes off as "real" to me, so I can't quibble over the actor's performance. I've only ever seen him in one other thing, a pilot for a show that didn't get off the ground, and he played a very similar sort of character, so I don't know if he has much range. He's certainly shown a nice range of behaviours within the character: we've seen him angry, intense, casual, teasing, deadly serious... plus, he has really good timing for comedy, and that's not easy, damn it!

I remember tripping over my first critique of JF's performance and going, "Buh, whu..!?", too. I just didn't get where the criticism came from. They get really oddly specific, too: they will critique the way he lifts his eyebrow for a paragraph, for heaven's sake. I think if you are looking THAT closely at a performance, you need to blink a few times, rub your eyes, and sit further from the television set. I mean, they just get really bizarrely nit-picky when critiquing the Flan.

I also think Welling is better than people make him out to be, because some fans seem to think that Clark's bumbling dopiness is the actor being clunky with the performance... but every time Welling is asked to play something other than dopey old Clark-bar, he seems to be rather good at it, and those same fans act all surprised. I think it must be rather difficult for a man in his mid- to late-twenties to play a gawky, small-town, teenaged boy, and really, he's done a nice job of it. Clark feels like a real person to me, one I want to smack upside the head, but a real person nonetheless.

Re: Master Thespian says, "ACTING!"

[ceares.livejournal.com]

Um-Huh. I think I borrowed your brain for my response there-darn it! Really should read everything before posting, not after *duh*.

[mecurtin.livejournal.com]

Starting at the end:
I was wondering, is there a direct correlation between how dramatic/flamboyant a character is--think McKay, Lex Luthor, Lionel Luthor, Justin Taylor--and the higher incident of actor popularity?

Not necessarily. Spock was less flamboyant than Kirk, but Nimoy a much more popular actor than Shatner. (Shatner has definitely improved a lot over the years.)

As catmoran said in her comments, comedy is *hard*, and actors who can do comedy (like DH & MR) are seen as having a lot of skill. This has a lot of influence on what the writers give them, too, because scriptwriters *all* love at least a little comedy, and they throw cookies to actors who can deliver it.

JF is putting in comic bits, no question, but you'll notice that most of these (at least in S1 & S2, I don't know about S3) are unscripted, physical comedy: failing to break the stick over his leg, for instance, or the scene in this icon. I don't think they were integral to the character as originally established, and I don't know how well the writers have integrated them into *their* vision of Sheppard.

As you can see in this discussion about a particular scene in "Home" (http://mecurtin.livejournal.com/302030.html), JF's acting in scenes with other actors can be confusing. It's partly a timing thing -- he tends to let the other actor finish speaking completely, so there's a beat of silence before he comes in, and it can be very disconcerting. His voice (at least as Sheppard) sounds to a lot of people (me, for inst) as though he's perpetually sarcastic, so it's really hard to tell what he *means* to convey.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

I remember that discussion. It's not that I don't get other people getting confused readings--no, wait. I do. I just--I take the low-key sarcasm as part of his personality, as much as McKay's louder, more obvious sarcasm. I just don't quite get why louder seems to equal better in general, or being obvious is somehow superior to being quiet. Both are legitimate ways to do a scene, and I honestly get utterly confused when there's a dissection of a scene that goes *that* meta.

[ceares.livejournal.com]

I was wondering, is there a direct correlation between how dramatic/flamboyant a character is--think McKay, Lex Luthor, Lionel Luthor, Justin Taylor--and the higher incident of actor popularity?

Hmm, I think sometimes performance that seem like not acting...ie that is what the actor is like in real life, particularly if it's not fierce and melodramatic or eccentric(think Jack Nicholson or Christopher Walken)don't get much respect/consideration.

For me, the levels are 'blow me away' 'really good''good' 'fine' 'didn't jar me out of the story' and 'wtf!'. Tom Welling for instance is primarily fine/good in my book with a few moment's of 'didn't jar me out of the story', but he's had moments of 'really good' and not just as RedK!Clark. I think his best moment was the scene with Chloe in Progeny? where he gets angry about her communicating with the woman she thinks might be his birth mother. It was honestly the first time I was aware of TW's size as a threat, which also means that he's good at being sweet and unassuming and a little goofy. I think he just doesn't get much credit for it because he seems that way in real life too, where as MR seems the exact opposite of Lex so therefore we know he's *Jon Lovitz voice* ACTING! */Jon Lovitz voice* (not that I don't think he's fab cause I do).

In other words, sometimes, like math class, you don't get respect unless you show your work.

PS: I love JF-I think he's great in the role. I don't know how much is written and what he brings to the table, but you know he manages to convince me that there's a whole world under the surface, and I love that

[daydreamer.livejournal.com]

I think that sometimes people assume that it's harder to play a character with a 'strong' personality and tons of idiosyncracies (aka, McKay) than it is to play one who just shoots a lot of things and says sarcastic things about sandwiches. And while I'm certainly not an actor or involved in theatre/film in any way, I can imagine that it's *at least* as hard to play an enigmatic character with very little backstory whose motivations, very often, are not clear from the dialogue/situation. And, yes, I think that DH is fantastic and probably a better actor in general than JF, but I also feel like DH would make a TERRIBLE John Sheppard, or at least, a Sheppard that bears almost no resemblance to the one we know and love. I once wrote that John's inability to 'commit' to a statement without sarcasm or joking - whether it's a reflection of JF's abilities or a conscious choice - is for me the essence of Sheppard. He's not comfortable with people thinking he's too smart or caring or important (because he was an unloved child or had a terrible breakup with his last gay lover or secretly has wings or WHATEVER), and that comes out in the way he speaks.

Summary: JF/JS's awkwardness totally works for the show, and me.

[jakwezst.livejournal.com]

Well I'm reading responses and while interesting and certainly valid the outcome turns out to be pretty much the same as all those Rodney/DH is king type of posts. Hardly surprising, of course, and really only goes to show that it's all about bias and partiality where once again fans fall over themselves to rally to the defence of their favourite and whether intentionally or not denigrate (even a little) the other. I'm not even going to say that I don't get it because after being in fandom for so long that would be a little disingenuous.

I like, no *love*, Rodney. He's my favourite character. I greatly admire DH from what I've seen of him as a person and as an actor.

Sheppard was a harder sell for me, but JF eventually won me over. I know nothing about JF and have no real interest in finding out more mostly because the interest in DH is an aberration and in general actors leave me cold. But I can only agree with all of those who are saying that it's JF's acting choices and abilities that make Sheppard come alive for them. I am an unrepentant Rodney McKay fan and could watch him all day long yet my favourite scene in the entire series belongs soley to JF. It's a scene I could watch over and over and it's not where he's looking hot (because that doesn't really do anything for me), but it's when he's 'acting' as I see it and nailing this character so perfectly that I swoon every single time I see it. It makes me laugh too - always a plus in my book.

And his acting just works for me, especially in the subtleties he brings to the role. I love him. But not in the way I love Rodney - sainthood pending *g*

So, what? I suppose I just wanted to add my voice to the 'debate' as a Rodney lover who certainly appreciates Sheppard and JF too.

[clarkangel.livejournal.com]

I just want to say that the DH fangurls I'm addressing here are the ones OTT and who make things up and dis Shep/Joe to make Rodney/DH better. Or whatever. I know alot of people online who LOVE ROdney and SHep equally. And who, like you, love rodney best but still love Shep too. Including their portrayers. Well..you know what I mean. You're not the type of DH/Rodney fan that makes me want to break something. LOL

[ranalore.livejournal.com]

It's the concept of "your fandom/pairing/character wears combat boots" all over again. Or all over still, actually. Same song, different verse, in perpetuity. It's a certain mindset, that the thing I like must be so much cooler than that thing over there in order to justify me liking it, that I have to focus on all the flaws of that thing over there, as well as the strong points of the thing I like. Add to that the complete and utter lack of objectivity that underlies so much of fannish love (and it's a good thing! Most of the time), and you get a lot of people bashing one thing as part of building up another thing and not even realizing how they're alienating the people they're trying to win over, because if you bash my thing, dude, you only make me more inclined to see the flaws in the thing you like.

Which is how I went from indifference to complete and utter loathing of both QaF UK and SG-1. Fans of both things were so determined to tell me how, honestly and truly, they were so much better than QaF US and seaQuest, and they were certain if they told me in just the right way, I'd see the light. Objectively, most of us are smart enough to know that approach never, ever works, but see above about the lack of objectivity in fannish love. The thing we love, we are deeply and illogically certain, is so wonderful, that surely the rules of human interaction don't apply, and we miss the fact that the thing is not that cool without the fannish love already factored in (which is no way to pimp a thing, and I know from pimping). We also miss the fact that we are not engendering goodwill and an inclination to fannish love toward our thing as a result of knocking this other thing, because it's so obvious to us that this other thing is not nearly as cool, and our fellow fans are bright people, so surely they'll see it too if we point it out and.... Yeah. We tie it up in intelligence and good taste and try to couch it in objective terms to bolster the strength of our arguments and to put the other guy on the defensive, but again, that's no way to pimp a thing. It's also no way to "score points," if that's your goal, because all you're doing is making yourself look unreasonable and self-deluding.

[the-groke.livejournal.com]

I--yes. Yes, yes. I want to run around and draw hearts all around the place.
♥ ♥ ♥
I just--it really gets to me sometimes and it's actually the backhanded compliments the most. Like a review that'll mention how great the acting in an episode was? even JF's? and then devotes a whole paragraph to explaining how much they think JF's not good at all? I just--It's not a compliment, I find it quite nasty truth be told.
And the moments when something the actor did actually gets to them and they immediately feel the need to handwave as accidentally caught on film and not acted at all?

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, I've read those too. *grim* It's at the point where I dont' even go to certain LJs because I get hit by those and you know? Not enriching my fannish experience at all.

Ooh, hearts! I like your decorating taste!

[nel-ani.livejournal.com]

I haven't really read all the comments before this, so if somebody has already brought up the theory, apologies.

Honestly, I think it's got less to do with the subject (in this case, JF's acting skills) and the fans behind it. I think all that's needed is for someone to critique, say, DH, for a DH fan to get really defensive and for things to escalate from there.

I was discussing this with a friend, and taking the SG fandom as an example, I had a period of serious Sam/Jack hate which had nothing to do with the pairing itself, but the people who kept trashing Jack/Daniel (who in this case happened to like S/J). I'd be willing to bet that their trashing had nothing to do with J/D either. I think it all stems from people getting defensive about their likes and having to defend them by saying bad stuff about other people's likes.

That's my theory, anyway.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

I was discussing this with a friend, and taking the SG fandom as an example, I had a period of serious Sam/Jack hate which had nothing to do with the pairing itself, but the people who kept trashing Jack/Daniel (who in this case happened to like S/J).

God, I know. I have these kneejerk reactions to it that I have to sit back from and think to myself, I love Rodney. His fans sometimes? Not so much. But it *does* become a problem when people don't even realize they're doing it on such a casual basis--the thing about Joe's acting is there even out of context of the actual entry--and suddenly are amazed when other people get irritated with it. I had to keep rephrasing my post to make sure I wasn't comign across as accusatory, but it's so common that people I *know* don't agree with something *go along anyway* they're so used to hearing it. Which is another part of the overall problem to me, though understandable.

[spankys.livejournal.com]

Whenever John does something *weird* to me, I think "hmmm, I wonder what John's thinking," not "Joe can't act." I get confused whenever people say Joe can't act. I can recognize good acting, i.e. Hewlett, James Marsters, Michael Rosenbaum, John Glover, but I feel like I can't recognize competent acting or even some bad acting i.e. the furor about Kristen Kruek. I just enjoy my stories ;)

[melagan.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I like how Joe plays his character. I like that he's not a typical hero. I enjoy what he does on screen and I don't get the criticism at all actually. /scratches head in puzzlement/

[seperis.livejournal.com]

I am with you there. God, I am so with you.

Have a margarita in solidarity.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I really like what Joe's done with the role. We could have had a flat action hero with a few flip lines, and instead we have this slightly cocky, just-barely-competent-as-a-leader-but-trying-hard kick-ass soldier.

He lets David steal scenes while playing the straight man and smirking, letting us enjoy the Hewlett comedy hour, and he seems to understand that the side kick defines the hero. Every time Rodney whines he emphasizes how tough and uncomplaining John is. That way we can have a larger-than-life hero without saying so directly.

I love his delivery on the comedic lines, and he has a way of playing toughing-it-out-but-vulnerable that really gets to me. The scenes where he's captured in "The Hive" and "No Man's Land," he looks like a scared kid, like he's struggling to keep his cool when he knows he's gonna die.

His interplay with women is great. He manages to come off as an utter guy, somewhat clueless, and at the same time something of a flirt, standing just a little too close and hovering hopefully. John's subtle with the body language cues, and he says a lot.

I'd say more, but I think I need a nap.

Icarus

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Hee!

I'm still shaky from Common Ground. Teh actor did just--amazing things with his face and voice every time he was tied up to that chair and it killed me every timme. I still cant' rewatch it yet. Teh first time my visceral reaction was just--whoa.

[harriet-spy.livejournal.com]

the fairly constant discussion of Joe Flanigan's lack of talent, lack of emoting, lack of this, lack of that--often paired up, oddly enough, with essays on David Hewlett's brilliance at whatever the poster has watched/did watch/is watching

I think a person can have legitimate criticisms of JF's performance, but when I see it coupled with raving over DH's, I think the person has probably confused "portrays a character I can identify with" with "good acting." (Just from reading recs and subject lines, etc., I know this is a recurring theme in the RPS, along with JF fearing that his career can't ever be as good as DH's, which unless it's AU requires such an utter blind clueless obliviousness from the poster that it makes me laugh. Neither of them are superstars, but one of them has actually had recurring roles on shows you had heard of before the show!) It seems to be a fairly common reaction: if a character makes you feel for him, the actor *must* be really great. Even if he's called on to do little but perambulate through an appealing shtick over and over again. If pressed, I'd say that, yes, DH is doing a little better than JF, but neither of them is lighting the world on fire, and, perhaps more importantly, that's not what the show is calling on them to do. A show only needs good acting if it is doing complicated and subtle things with its characters! Good acting gets in the way of the CGI!

[seperis.livejournal.com]

And for that reason I avoid all the RPS--with the strong anti-JF, I just dont' want to stumble across soemthing like that.

A show only needs good acting if it is doing complicated and subtle things with its characters! Good acting gets in the way of the CGI!

God, you made me almost lose another laptop keyboard with that! Possibly because it's so *true*.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I hadn't thought of that at all. Interesting. Thanks for dropping by!

[bruinsfan.livejournal.com]

My readings in SGA fandom are probably less extensive than yours, but I've thankfully not encountered a lot of people denegrating Joe's acting. I do think David Hewlett's is more likely to attract vocal fan notice, what with being far louder and the actor being about as involved in fandom as one can be. Most of the really vicious heat I've seen thrown at an actor has been headed in Torri Higginson's direction, something I honestly cannot fathom.

For myself, the only regular actor on the show I have any problem with is Momoa. And he has been injecting a bit more personality into the wookie lately. (Don't get me started on a rant about the guest "actresses" though—there's only one day left in the weekend!)

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Dear God that's a good icon. Sorry, but I needed a second to stare.

Dear *God*.

Right. Yes. And double yes on the Torri Higginson thing. I've seen that thrown out in utter bewilderment, wondering if we're even watching the same *show*, you know?

Ronon is slowly--reallly slowly--growing on me the more they give him in character than being scary. It's interesting to see if they continue to go that route with him.

[heygirlie.livejournal.com]

I never liked Justin Taylor. But possibly because - in regards to emoting the drama - Brian was flamin' enough for the both of them.

Yes, it is fandom. No, the Flan is not a terrible, sucky actor. I used to watch Smallville, I remember what bad acting in the sci-fi genre looked like. He tends to play the same *type* of character, unlike David, which may add something to people's opinions.

Also, McKay/David's popularity definitely has... something to do with it. Sheppard/Joe is the lead, but not necessarily the star or fan-favorite. I mean I remember how Willow was so loved in BtVS fandom, as opposed to the lead Buffy, but like this? Is it comparable?

[queen-of-goat.livejournal.com]

I don't really know that there's anything new I can add to this, but apparently I'm going to comment anyway.

I gotta say I don't get the Joe Flanigan bashing myself, and I am a person who tends to complain about acting skills. Joe's do not bother me. (OK, well every once in awhile when they make him do one of those 10 second soap opera looks I feel like he looks uncomfortable. But I can forgive that, because I honestly feel that Joe thinks so much about who John is as a person and all he can think is that John wouldn't stand there for 10 seconds with a tense look on his face, he would get off his ass and do something.)

What I really tend to judge an actor on is how they act in the background of a scene. What is that actor doing while the focus isn't on him? There are definitely actors who just kind of check out once they're on the sidelines. I've never noticed Joe Flanigan checking-out. He's as much John Sheppard when he's listening to someone talk in a meeting as he is when he's actively going after an enemy.

I just don't understand why it's so hard to say one thing is good without bashing something else that is related to it. And it's not just fandom. Just pick up the new Entertainment Weekly with the cover article on Battlestar Galactica. Apparently, not even professional writers can talk about the awesomeness of the show without also saying that Atlantis sucks. The article was also vaguely insulting about sci fi in general, but I digress.

So, yeah, I pretty much agree with everything you're saying.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Hey, I just like feeling like I'm not all alone in this! Comment away! And thanks. A lot of the comments are articulating what I couldn't quite figure out how to say, and getting it *right* the way I couldn't.

Thanks!

[chocmarsh.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I can understand not liking and actor's portrayal of a character, honestly, I've never liked the way Torri Higginson plays Weir, I think she's too theatrical, but that's just me, you know. I have nothing against Torri herself, and one of the reasons I don't say anything about that is because I'm afraid if I do say something someone somewhere will think its a personal attack, because a lot of times this type of criticism actually is.

We all have celebrities we dislike but some of us can't seem to get over the teenage phase of "I hate you, everything you do is crap." I think some people who constanly make attacks on an actor are stuck in this phase, I mean, I may not like Russell Crowe but I'm mature enough to say he's a kick-ass actor. Others, I feel, may just need to validate their favorite by bringing down other actors,(as previously stated), some might just not know good acting if Daniel Day Lewis hit them in the face, and others might just not like a particular actor's style, it happens.

I don't expressing your views on an actor's ability/style etc... is a bad thing. I thjink the problems come when a person takes every opportunity they can to belittle an actor's work.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

My problem with it isn't likes or dislikes--I mean, SV was *rife* with critique of KK and TW--but the level feels--and this could be just me, but I don't think so--constant, and so often in opposition to DH, like it's a competition. Frankly, it started turning me off the character and actor to see the constant comparisons going on between the two where there *shouldn't* be comparisons. So--yeah. Short version--yes.

[nakedwesley.livejournal.com]

Everone else has said what I've been thinking, but here's my two cents also.

The JF bashing bothers me too, partly because I catch myself looking for the negatives in a character I otherwise enjoy watching. Which sucks. I was ready to dismiss Sheppard as just another pretty face until Joe's quirky interpretation of the 'typical hero/male lead' drew me in. I adore the thousand and one facial expressions and squee over ever moment where Sheppard surprises me, because I think Joe's got a lot to do with that.

I've said before that Joe's got a comfortable, casual style of acting that I really like. He takes the time, as an actor and as his character, to listen and react, rather than just spewing out the next line in the script. I love watching him in 'The Other Sister' because even in the background, with few lines, he's building and maintaining his character.

I'm not saying JF is the next Olivier; there's always room for improvement, but if his 'talent' is narrow, it could be because he's always pigeon-holed into certain roles because of his looks. The SGA writers need to give him meatier stuff to do - as they've finally started doing this season. (His girfriend-beating character on CSI Miami really did creep me out! The boy can play Bad, if given the chance.)

There's no comparison between JF and DH; nor does there need to be. They compliment each other perfectly, and I think that's the main reason for the success of the McKay/Sheppard pairing, both in fanon and canon. Knocking one character in favor of the other, or bashing an actor for no good reason at all, just makes the writer look foolish and it just isn't necessary. I don't understand what people have to gain by it.

p.s. Bad acting = David Caruso's kabuki style, imo. Talk about overdoing the hands on hips thing! ;o)

pps. I liked Farewell To Harry!

[seperis.livejournal.com]

That's my thing. There can't be a comparison between them--they play diametrically different characters with completely different views, body language, etc. So it always feels like cheating to do it--yes, of *course* DH emotes more--that's his character. John's entire thing is the laid back calm, so if he did it, frankly, *that* would be a sign of bad acting.

Um. Word to everything? *grins*

[westmin.livejournal.com]

Usually when a post has more than 80 replies, i don't comment on it even though i do read through all the comments, because everyone else has already said what i was gonna; but i'm writing this in the hopes that you might feel a little better knowing you're not as alone..

i came into the sga fandom as a Rodney fan, but the Joe-bashing comments i've read made me uncomfortable even before i started appreciating his subtler/finer presentation. to me, JF is an acquired taste that i couldn't notice until my senses have recovered from the bombardment that is DH.

someone mentioned above that maybe JF fans are more introverted while DH fans are extroverts? i'm actually an introvert, but Rodney was the reason that drew me into this fandom. it was his sheer obnoxiousness that was refreshing; but after a while, i begin to realize that the show doesn't get blown apart by that whirlwind personality because there's a very nice solid anchor that balances out Rodney so that the entire show isn't entirely obnoxious ;P

i was a MR fan but i never really got to like TW, not that i dislike him either; but reading discussions about JF in this fandom has made me realize that i have grown to really like JF "despite" his good looks (which has handicapped him more often than people realize). i think it's possible that people are automatically intimidated by good-looking people, or that there's some sort of pre-emptive defense mechanism clicking on when we see someone very attractive and we'd hate to fall so easily to his charms. maybe some people resist this attraction by putting down that person's capabilities (i think this could happen to good-looking women in the workplace who find it hard to gain the respect of male co-workers?) it's easy to accept that DH is good at what he does because he's not conventionally handsome; but some might feel ashamed to admit that they think JF is a good actor, maybe because they're afraid others will think they're shallow for liking a "good-looking" actor.

of course, bad writing or lack of character development for his character have been more damaging to JF than to DH. i think Phantoms has convinced more people that JF's skills are not a fluke than any season 1 or 2 episode could. it's quite obvious his performance eclipsed that of the others, when it's harder to miss his subtlety when the camera centers on his face for longer periods of time.

even though the JF-bashing posts were disturbing, they did make me pay more attention to those actor interviews that i wouldn't have glanced at except out of curiosity. but it was these interviews that showed his thoughtful and honest responses, which made me see more clearly that his character is very much skillfully built, that it looks like he didn't put as much work into it because he's made it look so organic and non-artificial. it's this contrast between the character and the actor that made me see how much of a cardboard hero Sheppard would've been in another actor's hands.

i really love JF's Sheppard. i think when people complain about his "lack of emoting" they're really missing a huge chunk. his character is not McKay. he's not even the regular wine-n-dine/sleazy/smooth hero that gets the girl. it's so cute because he's awkwardly trying to be smooth. i can't actually think of another actor that can do this; most of them are either too sleazy or just too awkward. and it's also very cute that he breaks the expectation that good-looking guys would have it easy or would be naturally smooth.

anyways, i know i'm just preaching to the choir, but i am sorry you had to suffer such frustration and disappointment.. *hugs*

[seperis.livejournal.com]

*huge hugs*

Thank you for posting. It's--hmm. Most of the time, I can blow it off and ignore, but its' like my tolerance is kind of being eroded and I don't want to become one of those really frightening, whiny fans who get superoversensitized. When I did the entry--which is a five in teh morning entry for a reason, I could never have done it otherwise--I wanted to make it clear I'm not denying DH for JF--but that it's become so accepted, so *casually* accepted that I'm seeing it even in what should be fairly safe entries--a line, or a few paragraphs thrown in, or this really disheartening apologetic feeling from John and JF fans, like we're all scared to express that we *do* like him. I mean, for me, I kept thinking I was just missing something important that everyone else was seeing, and later, I just didn't want to make a fuss about it.

And now? I mean, I dont' want this to be a point of contention, but--I really did want to find out if I was alone in this, and connect with other fen so we *don't* feel quite so isolated in this.

So um, short version? I love your thoughts, and thank you very much for posting!

[idee-fixe13.livejournal.com]

I thought really hard about whether I’d respond your post, because I’m mostly a lurker which may invalidate my opinion a bit. But ultimately, like the poster before me, I just wanted to add to the “You are not alone”.

There's no reason to compare two different actors, especially if they’re not playing the same role. You *can't* compare them. DH and JF are both good at what they do. They're both a perfect fit for the character they're playing, they just have completely different styles. DH is "loud" and JF is "quiet", just because you prefer one style doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with the other. And no, there’s nothing wrong with occasionally discussing acting choices. But *everyone* on the show has made some awkward choices in that regard and you don't have to bash one actor to prop up the other.

The thing that bothers me most is how it is now almost taken for granted that JF is just struggling through (and I’ve noticed a lot of parroting of the same criticisms). I'm left wondering if they're watching the same show. Fact is, considering JF doesn’t actually have that much to work with (as opposed to DH), it’s a miracle Sheppard is such an interesting, complex and yes, real character. And we should thank JF for caring so much about the show and his character that he adds these little nuances TPTB neglect to give us.

The bashing has been interfering with my enjoyment of the show and the character of McKay both (and I love McKay!). I came very close to giving up on SGA altogether because of it, but in the end I just love Sheppard (and actually the other characters on the show) too much to do that.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Lurking *so does not* invalidate or lessen an opinion. I mean, if you watch the show? That's all you need. Stick around! Here's a chair! And a margarita of solidarity!

The thing that bothers me most is how it is now almost taken for granted that JF is just struggling through (and I’ve noticed a lot of parroting of the same criticisms).

Weirdly--rote, too. Like it's not even being *thought about*, just assumed. And I--just do not *see* it. Nothing even close. So yeah, totally with you. Considering that the script usually *doesn't* give him much to work with? The fact he's so vivid as a character to me, with defined characteristics, tells me he's doing something *very* right.

Thanks so much for stopping by. And please, feel free to post anytime.

[sabine-26.livejournal.com]

Since I am just a lurker I feel a bit intrusive posting this but I just had to chime in with a 'me too'.
John Sheppard is a fascinating character but a tough role to play, I think. He's emotionally guarded, so any time Sheppard is having a quiet little internal freakout, JF has to show two things at once - Sheppard's reserve and strength on the outside and the deep feelings and vulnerability beneath that. And JF does that and also shows us Sheppard's dorky charm so naturally and consistently that I never feel like I'm watching someone act. He has such a nice subtle style, I could watch him all day. And if you factor in that he had scant help from the writers or directors in creating Sheppard's complicated little head space, my final analysis is that JF is a pretty deep thinker and skilled actor. And scorchingly hot.
As to why DH fans are so dismissive of JF, maybe it's just natural that people who like exuberant acting don't appreciate quiet acting? But how anyone could see either Common Ground or Phantoms and not be impressed (and also want to hug Sheppard) is a mystery to me. Or maybe they're just echoing the attitude of Martin Gero, who apparently thinks McKay went to Pegasus by himself. But it does bother me and makes me unfairly resent McKay and DH. So it was nice to see all the comments praising JF.

[clarkangel.livejournal.com]

I have a truckload of WORD for this post.

[kodiak-bear.livejournal.com]

Another lurker, but hey, this is to show that JF/John *does* have fans and I don't think we are so much in the minority, as that like others have mentioned, we tend to be a quieter bunch.

I haven't run into a whole lot of Joe bashing (thank God), but I've been steered to some discussions with a 'defend our guy' statement. The thing is, I rarely do because a) seeing Joe bashed makes me feel slightly sick and b) you can rarely 'make' anyone reconsider their prejudices and beliefs.

I'm a huge fangirl of Joe's, which is completely weird because normally as much as I like a show and the characters, I completely stay away from actors. I loved X-Files, loved Mulder, but never got into David Duchovny.

Anyway, about the acting thing, I'd love to write an essay on what it is about him that makes Sheppard my OTC, but it's all ready been said over and over again so I won't waste anyone's time. Suffice to say that Joe has created a character on the screen that completely sucks me in. Off screen, Joe has presented himself as a person who I can appreciate as an actor.

I never took theater, I don't have any intimate knowledge of the ins and outs of cues, awkwardness, or anything of that nature, but I have been a television fan for a majority of my life, and I can say that Joe's subtle body language, his eyes, his movements, go a long way to give us insights into Sheppard.

And whoever mentioned having a hard time watching CG because of that was dead on the money. I love that episode, but those early shots kill me. Joe delivered like a big thing and it's quiet possibly one of the few times that something on screen has made me physically *hurt*.

I've never understood character/actor bashing. Sheppard is my OTC, but I thoroughly enjoy the Sheppard-McKay dynamic.

And the whole 'poor Rodney, evil John' fic...I hate it. Hate it with a passion. But I hated the 'poor Daniel, evil Jack' too. I think it's completely OOC, and I can't for the life of me see where it's coming from because it sure as heck isn't on the screen, for either shows. Yes, they badger and tease, but to believe that John would be awful to Rodney (and do him harm) goes against the grain of their friendship shown on the screen. I know that fanfic is the interpretation of the writer, and that writers can do their thing, which is why I just avoid it, but it definitely causes a spike on the ire meter because I don't know where that stuff comes from. And I really don't want to.

I'm surrounded by fellow Shep fans and happy in my little world! ::grin::

[clarkangel.livejournal.com]

Heee> Good to see you here, Sweetie. Isn't this a beautiful, safe, place?

We all need to band together like this. Some have said they feel so ALONE in loving Shep/Joe. And that they feel almost ashamed to admit they like him. And HEAVEN FORBID you apprecitate his looks. That utterly means he's a sucky actor and yourself, as a poster, is of the shallow. ::Shakes head::

And those fics? Eep. We've talked.

Someone above said we need to create a place. We really should. Where we can post after an ep and squee about Shep/Joe and not end up running into LJ's/posts that diminish the squee.

We could offer up Shep H/C for that. Whatcha think?

THANK YOU, SEPERIS

[clarkangel.livejournal.com]

I just wanted to do a new post to thank you for this post. Cause...I was feeling down for a long time about SGA and THIS is why. You can ask Kodiak, she's had to listen to my rants about the OTT Rodney fangurls dissing on Shep/Joe for the past year.

This place, right here, this post...has made me feel so much better. LIghter, some how. I feel good about SGA again. I feel LESS angry at Rodney. Unfair of me to hate him at times, but it's always been BECAUSE of the fans.

So thank you so much for making my little tiny corner of the world a better place. I now feel the urge to SQUEE and SQUEE and SQUEE!!!

Re: THANK YOU, SEPERIS

[seperis.livejournal.com]

*sends you hugs* Exactly.

I know. This entire *entry* made me feel a hundred times better.

[thegrrrl2002.livejournal.com]

I don't get it either. While I'm a total DH fangirl, and think that he's brilliant, I love the way JF plays Sheppard. And I think he's pretty darn talented.

The role isn't as flashy as DH's, but JF does some interesting and unusual things with it. Maybe not everyone likes the choices he makes, but I certainly do. And I'm glad you made this post, because it was something that was really starting to bug me.