yeah, no, and fuck you

[seperis]

Really.

On behalf of those of us who were and are single women on welfare with children in the South and at some point in our lives lived in a--I need to check the wording--"rural south USA in a welfare slum trailer"--and who do not think our population should be fodder for your smug little war on the word shack:

Fuck. You.

Are you fucking serious?

Are you comparing lower income women's lives--and since you used the word 'welfare', we all know you're talking about women, who make up the majority of welfare clients; women, whose choices and lives are limited by poverty and the difficulties raising children alone, without spousal support; poor urban women, a population that is statistically more likely to be battered by their male partner--to a fucking challenge using the word shack?

I suppose indywind felt it was 'problematic' to use the term 'trailer trash'; should I be grateful? Thank you. Your buddies in that thread who were so excited to read it--and that super clever "Now them's fightin' words!!!" jab--also have my abject gratitude that parts of my life--and my family, friends, and clients from when I was a caseworker who decided benefits for those renters of "rural south USA in a welfare slum trailer"--are being held up in humourous example of how southern poverty is totally like using the word shack. I feel as if social justice is on my side.

So, my night is shit. How's everyone else doing?

Comments

[nestra]

Oh, someone worked in Katrina too. Awesome.

[seperis]

...one of them worked in Katrina? Holy God.

[sporky_rat]

It's not on. But it's also not on to use the word 'shack' to describe nice lakeside cabins when it's considered a term for poverty ridden First Nation homes either.

(I noticed my sarcasm didn't convey well on that post and I apologize if it seemed like I was supporting this.)

[seperis]

Please take your bad excuses for your classism elsewhere. I really don't care about your so-noble intent.

[princessofgeeks]

I made the "fighting words" rejoinder and I just sent you a PM in regard to this.

[seperis]

Replied.

[minim_calibre]

I would cheerfully describe the house my Granny lived in before she went into the nursing home as a shack.

An actual, factual Canadian shack. In which I am sure people had sex, though perhaps not my Granny (and if she did, I don't want to know about it).

On the other side of the family, my cousin Dale's place, well, it's more of a singlewide. Or maybe a doublewide. I'm not actually sure, as I've never physically seen it, and her FB descriptions (usually when she has an electrical fire, or has to escape a forest fire) aren't what one would call vivid. But it is a shack in spirit.

And you know, I get being pissed about the American Elephant. More, perhaps, than many people with Canadian citizenship, because I live in the states and it chafes me daily. But holy SHITBALLS, that's not the way to respond to it.

[minim_calibre]

And when I say shack, I mean, I have been in the building recently, and if the village had codes or inspections, it would be condemned in a heartbeat. It's an old, falling-apart building in a defunct mining town, currently lacking in electricity and many interior walls.

And it's a fairly typical example of the village where my mother grew up.

I found the whole framing of the argument smacked of classist bullshit, failing to articulate things in ways that made me sympathetic to the arguer. Perhaps it was the mention of the OP's cabin that caused my heels to dig in and make me want to write everything in a Canadian shack.

Christ knows, I know my way around them.

The Katrina thing... I think my head exploded.

[scrollgirl]

Okay, maybe I'm out of line here, but I thought staranise's original post had a good point. I really don't think indywind should have made a joke about it, but I feel the comparison is still a good one--that the state of poverty among a lot of the First Nations is very similar to women living in poverty in the rural south. And if one's not okay, the other's not okay either. (Which... yeah, indywind shouldn't have made a joke about it. I wouldn't have made a joke about how badly Attawapiskat residents have it.) Like staranise says, it's insulting to use other people's poverty for a meme about middle-class to wealthy white men who swing by for blanket-sex and then leave again? I mean, I don't know due South fandom--I have to imagine that was never the intention. It's really just a shorthand for "isolated place, cuddling for warmth, blanket-sex" but, well, I don't get the sense that the majority of dS fandom really paid attention to what actually happens among aboriginal populations in rural Canada.

[scrollgirl]

Okay, maybe I'm misunderstanding something here. Aren't most Canadian shack stories about two guys huddling in an actual-fact shack? Not in comfy cabins? I thought the whole isolated, roughing it, survivor aspect was part of the meme.

[raine]

All I have to say is: wow.

[amireal]

Dear Jenn,

I am about three steps away from taking a flamethrower to it all.

Would you like to join me?

Love and Anger,
Ami

[norabombay]

We could start a fire brigade.

Not the kind that puts fires -out-, the other kind.

[luminosity]

It's been at least a week since I've witnessed such blatant shit-stirring in fandom. And, having lived in such straits...

...and I see Katrina's now part of the equation. Well, fuck them.

JFC

/pissed off icon is pissed off

[snacky]

Here by way of musesfool. I saw that comment this afternoon and just couldn't believe how offensive that was.

[seperis]

That seriously came out of nowhere. And a really revolting nowhere at that.

[malkingrey]

I know that I followed a link to the post in question, and all I could think of after reading it was, "Oh, for heaven's sake. Don't these people have anything more important to get offended at?"

All I could figure was that the term "shack" in the original poster's regional/social dialect must carry with it a radically different assortment of connotations than it does in the dialect of speakers from other regions/social groups . . . and that was before the First Nations came into the argument from somewhere out in left field.

[hollyberries]

Okay then. What part about the improper use of the word 'shacks' wasn't important enough to get offended at? The frankly appalling conditions the First Nations live in? The constant dismissiveness Canadians face from Americans on a cultural level? Offensive generalizations that don't take into account actual, ongoing social issues in a country that's not your own?

Please, tell me.

[jackycomelately]

Yes, that was a remarkably elite and smug post. It was also...disingenuous...I think is the word. As a citizen of one of the wealthiest nations in the world it is a bit like a white male complaining about reverse discrimination. I mean sure there is a bit of a stereotype about rural Canada, but I'm pretty sure we can afford to take the hit. There was also something really unsavory about the writer's attitude toward poverty in general. I'm from Northwestern Ontario and you know not every cabin came with cable, but it was a vacation home, you know? That's fundamentally different than someone living in a structure with real issues. Also fuck her (or him), I've had relatives who have lived in trailers.

[beachlass]

Agreed. And its more than unsavoury and disingenuous, I think, because of the way First Nations poverty is being used as a trump card. Feels like appropriation of other people's pain to score points in an internet argument. An argument that nice Cdn cottages shouldn't be called shacks, for fuck's sake. Off the scale inappropriate.

[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<rural [...] mom,>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

Agreed. And its more than unsavoury and disingenuous, I think, because of the way First Nations poverty is being used as a trump card. Feels like appropriation of other people's pain to score points in an internet argument. An argument that nice Cdn cottages shouldn't be called shacks, for fuck's sake. Off the scale inappropriate.

<rural canadian, single mom, previous welfare recipient credentials>

A somewhat better response than my rushed last one

[thejeopardymaze]

Are you comparing lower income women's lives--and since you used the word 'welfare', we all know you're talking about women, who make up the majority of welfare clients; women, whose choices and lives are limited by poverty and the difficulties raising children alone, without spousal support; poor urban women, a population that is statistically more likely to be battered by their male partner--to a fucking challenge using the word shack?


The White Knighting syndrome enforcing language policing in the name of disability rights is bad enough-and I'm sick of hearing how if you're disabled and disagree with it you're a self-loathing disabled person, now it's all over the place for just about anything. I won't pretend I'm surprised by this kind of bullshit, dogpiling is already considered oppressive in some circles, but you have my sympathies.

Re: A somewhat better response than my rushed last one

[yahtzee]

The White Knighting syndrome enforcing language policing in the name of disability rights is bad enough.

Amen. I am at the point where I believe this stuff to be sincere instead of thinly disguised fandom grudges about .05% of the time. Which is a shame, because the genuine discussions have long since been drowned out by the sound of all those axes to be ground.

[kass]

I...am making the choice not to click on the link, because I do not need the blood pressure spike this morning. But I wanted to say that this sure sounds pretty ridiculous to me, and also, I am sorry it ruined your night, and also, you are awesome, always.

[crabby-lioness.livejournal.com]

Um, context is kinda missing here.

I mean, I'm in the South, have kids, and lived in a trailer for until 18 months ago.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

The entry here (http://staranise.dreamwidth.org/285971.html) is apparently what it is about.

[inu-spockya.livejournal.com]

mstly that sounded like more of the kind of wanking I used to hear growing up in bc; the meme itself sounds annoying as hell but I didn't see a personally-meant sideswipe there. 2 caveats: I've never lived in the South though I have lived in a car and occasionally out in the bushes, I didna have kids to safeguard so I had more options parents do not have. also: mind reading costs extra, so who am I to say what was meant.

can offer sympathetic ear, and u-r-a-friend noogies? (hopes he's not being rude)

[seperis.livejournal.com]

*curls up with you*

[apetslife.livejournal.com]

Wait. Wait. People are getting worked up over the word "SHACK?" Seriously? Honestly?

...

...

...I got nothin.'

[scrollgirl.livejournal.com]

I... wasn't sure if I should respond, because the conversation is heated and also I feel that the OP is mixing up different arguments in a way that clouds the more serious issue (of First Nation poverty) and throws in problematic class assumptions.

However, I do think "shack" in the context of "what real people who live in the rural north of Canada have to live in" can be problematic. If you type "Canadian Shack" into google, you get Ces' challenge. If you type in "First Nations shack" into google, you get Shacks, slop pails on Wasagamack First Nation (CBC.ca). It's a crisis in Canada that we've totally failed to deal with. Me, personally, I'm not going to get up in arms about the Canadian Shack challenge, though someone else with legitimate problems with it might.

Seperis, again my apologies if you'd prefer that I don't try to redirect the conversation. I can always take it elsewhere and you're free to delete my comment.

[hollyxu.livejournal.com]

Hey, I'm sorry it made you feel so terribly! I think the posters in that thread were trying to equate the slashfics taking place in Canadian shacks with hypothetical ones in rural south USA in a welfare slum trailer. The gist, from context, is that they're equally appalling and shouldn't take place at all.

So, um, it's not intentional, probably just badly worded/contexted.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Couldn't be anywhere with poverty or urban poverty; it was rural south USA welfare slum trailer. I mean, maybe being a former inhabitant of such a location I'm too sensitive, but without intent, it's pretty much even worse.

Threatening to write it in a fit of classist outrage is...I have no idea what that is, but it's sick.

[imkalena.livejournal.com]

Thank you for saying something sensible about that whole discussion.

/random comment

[traveller.livejournal.com]

I am all out of energy for this kind of bullshit, in the general sense of having spent the better part of 35 years defending how and where I grew up, and in the specific sense of this was a longass fucking day where nothing went right, so... just. I get you, man. I know.

[maggiebloome.livejournal.com]

I've been arguing on tumblr with people who think male feminists should be excommunicated if it turns out they have ever in their life hurt a woman under any circumstances?

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

*random lightening up of the mood on this thread but:* Your icon is teh rock.

[(Anonymous)]

Argh... yes this kind of thing is really, really irritating.

I had a similar reaction to yours a few months ago upon reading someone's post who -while ranting against a supposedly anti-Chinese article- was sideswiping Europe apparently without even realizing it, and all her friends then cheerfully agreeing to her superficially politically correct remarks.

As a European myself, I took a rather dim view of the whole thing and regret to say I am still furious about it. Not that said person would care, of course. What? We are not American, so we are below dirt? Thanks anyway.

Well, never mind all that, I'll go check out this un-PC challenge!

*hugs from one of your usual anon stalkers*

[in-stead.livejournal.com]

I've gone away and thought about this for a few days and upon reflection am still very cross with the original post, which in my mind started the whole conversation off in the wrong tone.

Until I moved to England six years ago, lived my entire life on and around First Nations reserves. I've even been to Attawapiskat, which the staranise linked to information about. In contrast, many or even most Canadians have never been on a reserve.

Reserves can be very deprived and have a lot of problems, but they are usually also great, close-knit communities. Including Attawapiskat! They are more than a convenient example of 'shackland' and infrastructure crises to support a rant against a tongue-in-cheek internet challenge.

The whole conversation has put my back up something fierce. I feel like it has reduced both northern First Nations and Southern communities to nasty, dreary little places -- and I guess it is therefore no wonder staranise doesn't want to be associated with places like that.

[misanthrope]

staranise is a privileged twit.