seperis | yeah, no, and fuck you

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Crossposts: http://seperis.livejournal.com/921432.html

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yeah, no, and fuck you

Really.

On behalf of those of us who were and are single women on welfare with children in the South and at some point in our lives lived in a--I need to check the wording--"rural south USA in a welfare slum trailer"--and who do not think our population should be fodder for your smug little war on the word shack:

Fuck. You.

Are you fucking serious?

Are you comparing lower income women's lives--and since you used the word 'welfare', we all know you're talking about women, who make up the majority of welfare clients; women, whose choices and lives are limited by poverty and the difficulties raising children alone, without spousal support; poor urban women, a population that is statistically more likely to be battered by their male partner--to a fucking challenge using the word shack?

I suppose

indywind felt it was 'problematic' to use the term 'trailer trash'; should I be grateful? Thank you. Your buddies in that thread who were so excited to read it--and that super clever "Now them's fightin' words!!!" jab--also have my abject gratitude that parts of my life--and my family, friends, and clients from when I was a caseworker who decided benefits for those renters of "rural south USA in a welfare slum trailer"--are being held up in humourous example of how southern poverty is totally like using the word shack. I feel as if social justice is on my side.

So, my night is shit. How's everyone else doing?

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Oh, someone worked in Katrina too. Awesome.

...one of them worked in Katrina? Holy God.

Because writing stories set in post-Katrina FEMA trailers would be equivalent. Or would show those fucking Americans. Or something.

(I love you, but I have to stop following your links, I swear. I'm about to fricking hyperventilate over this.)

I took a nap after work thinking it would calm me down. It--didn't, at all.

Because writing stories set in post-Katrina FEMA trailers would be equivalent. Or would show those fucking Americans. Or something.

I'm trying to work out who she's trying to 'show'; poor people in trailers who are in fandom? That's fucked up on a variety of levels.

That is my paraphrase, by the way, not a direct quote.

No. I was pointing out that writing cheerful happy porn about white people which uses the background of something that involves significant suffering of the disadvantaged and those targeted by racism is, in and of itself, racist and classist and I would like people to stop doing it.

I DON'T WANT people to write that fic. I also don't want people to write happy white guy porn using settings I grew up in which are subject to the disasters, huge amounts of racism, huge amounts of poverty and social neglect, and contains friends and relatives of mine.

I'm very sorry (genuinely) if the way I framed things did not get across, and that's my flaw. But what you're taking from this is NOT what I meant.

Your clever, clever intent does not matter. How is this hard to understand? To show off your social progressivism, a disgusting stereotype was dragged out and aired to show how smart and liberal you are; what it showed was a dramatic misunderstanding of poverty, and a stereotype bordering on fetish for what seems to be some idea of what Southern poverty--Southern rural poverty--Southern rural poverty in a slum, Southern rural poverty in a slum involving a trailer. Involving a population majority women and often majority Black and Hispanic.

If you aren't getting how utterly revolting this was, that it was equally disgusting in context, then I have nothing more to add. Your intent was just as disgusting.

Actually, all I was trying to say was that "conditions in post-Katrina Louisiana were bad and serious and unjust, and it would be shitty to write happy porn fic in that area." I used it because the Attawapiskat people were also moved after a natural disaster, and because that population is also majority women, and majority First Nations - not white. And that this is the association I have with "shacks" in Canada, and with the areas in which these fics are set.

You're right. On the level that I was using it above, I don't see how the comparison is completely revolting. I was saying that it is uncool to use either for porn. I was saying it is uncool to fetishize either or use it for a backdrop for your light-hearted fiction. That is all I've been saying.

I am genuinely sorry that I have upset you this much, and that in my own anger my entry here was what it was.

Edited 2012-01-12 04:49 (UTC)

Please be progressive somewhere else, and leave my family, friends, and former clients out of it. I think we've had enough people being on our side and confirming disgusting stereotypes for really important reasons for one day. We have the entire US conservative movement doing it; we don't need help with that, thanks.

To writing stories about Canadian shacks when the people living in fucking Canadian shacks are the rural poor in the middle of a racist housing crisis?

Yes. It would.

...those poor southern trailer slum dwellers will totally be taught a valuable lesson. Thank god someone is here to tell them.

See my other comment.

I would also gently point out that you're making a number of assumptions. As

indywind pointed out, zie would be writing from personal experience - otherwise known as, zie lived in what zie would be writing about.

Our intent was not, at any point, to belittle or degrade those living in difficult circumstances. Some of the people in those threads are those people. Some of them used to be. Some of us have or currently do work in the Northern communities we're talking about.

What we're saying is that this meme hits us that way. Because the places that meme writes about are the places where our society has fucking failed people, where people are forced to live in awful circumstances they did not deserve or create, but were created for them by natural disasters or by racism and bureacratic indifference to straight up bureaucratic malice, and thus having those places be space for thoughtless happy funtimes porn between well-off white guys is kind of upsetting.

The people currently living in the real "Canadian shacks" were moved because of a flood and then left there to die of malicious neglect, and now our government is blaming them. So the meme is kind of a spit in the face for those of us for whom that's a major context.

Again, I genuinely apologize for using examples that apparently hit painful buttons for you, but I was not trying to belittle those people or degrade them. I was trying to draw a comparison I thought an American would understand, because Americans don't tend to know anything about Canada, especially northern Canada, so just mentioning the social issues tends to go woosh.

No, that shit was a revolting stereotype and you used it to score points on an actual social issue.

Seriously, stop. You're making it worse with every comment. This isn't an apology when you're not actually sorry for saying something that was offensive and have yet to acknowledge your example was wrong on every level possible.

As you wish. I actually am sorry that in my attempt to get a point across, I tread on this minefield, and that in my own frustration I entered as I did. I hope your night improves.

Attempt to not perpetuate stereotypes for greater justice on your way out, would you? The poor rural south slum trailer dwellers would appreciate the consideration.

Funnily enough, I'm pretty sure the last time I told someone to go fuck themselves on the internet was about Katrina.

Go fuck yourself.

It's not on. But it's also not on to use the word 'shack' to describe nice lakeside cabins when it's considered a term for poverty ridden First Nation homes either.

(I noticed my sarcasm didn't convey well on that post and I apologize if it seemed like I was supporting this.)

Please take your bad excuses for your classism elsewhere. I really don't care about your so-noble intent.

I am confused. Someone/people point(s) out the classism in using the word shack and other people say that does not excuse using classist terminology regarding us trailer inhabitants. The difference seems to be, the ones writing about the shack were UNintentionally classist, while the ones dissing the us trailers were INtentionally classist. I am neither american or canadian but what I am reading is:

1: writing (slash) fic in little wooden houses in canada called shacks
2. says: using shack in happy white people fic is classist bec of its connotations. How would you feel if we did that with us trailer? * add unnecessary offensive terminology *
1. What, that terminology is classist!
2. Sorry. But you were classist!
1. You were classist!
2. Sorry. But you were classist!

Me: ?? What? How is this discussion going ANYWHERE?

I made the "fighting words" rejoinder and I just sent you a PM in regard to this.

Replied.

I would cheerfully describe the house my Granny lived in before she went into the nursing home as a shack.

An actual, factual Canadian shack. In which I am sure people had sex, though perhaps not my Granny (and if she did, I don't want to know about it).

On the other side of the family, my cousin Dale's place, well, it's more of a singlewide. Or maybe a doublewide. I'm not actually sure, as I've never physically seen it, and her FB descriptions (usually when she has an electrical fire, or has to escape a forest fire) aren't what one would call vivid. But it is a shack in spirit.

And you know, I get being pissed about the American Elephant. More, perhaps, than many people with Canadian citizenship, because I live in the states and it chafes me daily. But holy SHITBALLS, that's not the way to respond to it.

And when I say shack, I mean, I have been in the building recently, and if the village had codes or inspections, it would be condemned in a heartbeat. It's an old, falling-apart building in a defunct mining town, currently lacking in electricity and many interior walls.

And it's a fairly typical example of the village where my mother grew up.

I found the whole framing of the argument smacked of classist bullshit, failing to articulate things in ways that made me sympathetic to the arguer. Perhaps it was the mention of the OP's cabin that caused my heels to dig in and make me want to write everything in a Canadian shack.

Christ knows, I know my way around them.

The Katrina thing... I think my head exploded.

Okay, maybe I'm out of line here, but I thought staranise's original post had a good point. I really don't think indywind should have made a joke about it, but I feel the comparison is still a good one--that the state of poverty among a lot of the First Nations is very similar to women living in poverty in the rural south. And if one's not okay, the other's not okay either. (Which... yeah, indywind shouldn't have made a joke about it. I wouldn't have made a joke about how badly Attawapiskat residents have it.) Like staranise says, it's insulting to use other people's poverty for a meme about middle-class to wealthy white men who swing by for blanket-sex and then leave again? I mean, I don't know due South fandom--I have to imagine that was never the intention. It's really just a shorthand for "isolated place, cuddling for warmth, blanket-sex" but, well, I don't get the sense that the majority of dS fandom really paid attention to what actually happens among aboriginal populations in rural Canada.

Okay, maybe I'm misunderstanding something here. Aren't most Canadian shack stories about two guys huddling in an actual-fact shack? Not in comfy cabins? I thought the whole isolated, roughing it, survivor aspect was part of the meme.

Yes. Actual-fact shacks, in remote locations, not usually used for habitation. Pref. drafty.

Serving the same narrative purpose as the gamekeeper or poacher's shacks in Regency romances, where they have to huddle together to keep warm, and sharing their naked body warmth leads to sex. It's an ancient trope, really.

Oh, good, thanks for the clarification! I was a bit confused with all the references to cottages and cabins...

It is also worth noting that when the first challenge ran, a decade ago, the First Nations housing crisis in question wasn't what it now is, and certainly not what you'd get near the top of a web search. (Because conditions always have to get to horrific before people pay attention.)

So it is a far, far less ingrained association than the example used. (dueSouth starts in a fictional fantasy Northwest Territories, to be pedantic, and thus has its own set of issues at play.)

Yes, this. The Canadian Shack of fiction IS actually a rough wood building in the middle of the wilderness with no indoor plumbing and a stove for heat. As seen on the produced-by-Canadians show Due South. Somehow calling a shack a shack is offensive enough to start dissing Southern US rural women and their families ....

What indywind said was completely out of line and undefenceable.

I addressed the "shack" thing a little over on the LJ version of this post. That said, I don't think the fic challenge is actually *about* First Nations poverty.

...I understand what you're saying, but nothing defends indywind's comment. I wish you wouldn't attempt to set this up as a defensible comment because of the original post. In no context is it appropriate.

I apologise, I wasn't trying to defend indywind saying what she said.

I didn't think you were directly, but even with context, indywind's little aside was horrible.

(reply from suspended user)

I don't think *that*, but that was the example used.

Yeah, but that specific example in itself was problematic; southern poverty is a trope that's is more 'stereotypical' and more prevalent in offensive stereotypes of the south and of poverty. The entire clever challenge is literally stacking offensive stereotypes that are considered 'humorous'. So it's not just offensive; it's a very specific type of offensive that also can imply 'welfare queen' and it goes on and on and on. I grew up being called trailer trash and listening to the poor southern stereotypes, so it's fairly personal to me.

It was bad enough before slum got thrown in there. Slum was the icing on the offensive cake, with all its cheerful implications that the people living there are lazy slobs wallowing in their own poverty.

No, you're right, that comment just piled on more and more offensiveness--especially because it was a targeted comment. (The fic challenge isn't actually *about* First Nations poverty.) And there's no real point in trying to compare poverty in the south to First Nations poverty and the racism and stereotyping they face. I mean, in a way I was making a comparison? I didn't want to have it lost in the confusion that this *is* how the First Nations are treated. And that what "welfare queen" means to an American might be different from what it means to a Canadian. But neither do I want to make it a competition of who has it the worse off.

But I'm going to stop talking now, especially since I'm not First Nations myself, so I don't know what it's like to live that experience and I'm definitely talking out my depth now.

All I have to say is: wow.

(reply from suspended user)

Dear Jenn,

I am about three steps away from taking a flamethrower to it all.

Would you like to join me?

Love and Anger,
Ami

We could start a fire brigade.

Not the kind that puts fires -out-, the other kind.

It's been at least a week since I've witnessed such blatant shit-stirring in fandom. And, having lived in such straits...

...and I see Katrina's now part of the equation. Well, fuck them.

JFC

/pissed off icon is pissed off

Here by way of

musesfool. I saw that comment this afternoon and just couldn't believe how offensive that was.

That seriously came out of nowhere. And a really revolting nowhere at that.

I know that I followed a link to the post in question, and all I could think of after reading it was, "Oh, for heaven's sake. Don't these people have anything more important to get offended at?"

All I could figure was that the term "shack" in the original poster's regional/social dialect must carry with it a radically different assortment of connotations than it does in the dialect of speakers from other regions/social groups . . . and that was before the First Nations came into the argument from somewhere out in left field.

Okay then. What part about the improper use of the word 'shacks' wasn't important enough to get offended at? The frankly appalling conditions the First Nations live in? The constant dismissiveness Canadians face from Americans on a cultural level? Offensive generalizations that don't take into account actual, ongoing social issues in a country that's not your own?

Please, tell me.

I've had a little bit of time to reflect, and I want to apologize for the tone of my comment. It's needlessly hostile and dismissive of your point, and thus unwarranted.

However, I consider all of the issues I raised to be relevant. Just because they are not important to you, doesn't mean they're not important at all. And now I'm going to stop commenting. Good night.

What to take issue with first? Let me see . . .

The assumption that there is only one proper use of the word "shack" and that you get to say what it is?

The assumption that nobody else knows from rural poverty and substandard housing conditions?

Or, just possibly, the idea that scolding fanfic writers over vocabulary choices in a slash meme constitutes an actual effective response to a real social problem?

Hi, I've sent you a PM in response, I hope you forgive my overreaction, it was mostly caused by personal, outside frustrations, and shouldn't have had any place here.

There's a lot of that going on all over the web. Personally, I blame the unseasonable weather and the fact that it's an election year for the US -- they're combining to make all of us less charitable and quicker on the draw than we probably should be.

This isn't the Stephen Harper Rural Sex Challenge. The complaints are like arguing that a Stargate: Atlantis "Sex in a stranded Puddlejumper" challenge is horrible because the humans on Battlestar Galactica are forced to live in their stranded spaceships.

It is two things that are utterly unrelated, and trying to make them related is a recipe for failure all round.

Ugh, this is why I shouldn't internet after a long day running around. I completely missed the distinction, which is why I overreacted in such a huge way. Sorry!

I think I'm going to steep in shame in the time-out corner now.

Yes, that was a remarkably elite and smug post. It was also...disingenuous...I think is the word. As a citizen of one of the wealthiest nations in the world it is a bit like a white male complaining about reverse discrimination. I mean sure there is a bit of a stereotype about rural Canada, but I'm pretty sure we can afford to take the hit. There was also something really unsavory about the writer's attitude toward poverty in general. I'm from Northwestern Ontario and you know not every cabin came with cable, but it was a vacation home, you know? That's fundamentally different than someone living in a structure with real issues. Also fuck her (or him), I've had relatives who have lived in trailers.

Agreed. And its more than unsavoury and disingenuous, I think, because of the way First Nations poverty is being used as a trump card. Feels like appropriation of other people's pain to score points in an internet argument. An argument that nice Cdn cottages shouldn't be called shacks, for fuck's sake. Off the scale inappropriate.

[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<rural [...] mom,>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

Agreed. And its more than unsavoury and disingenuous, I think, because of the way First Nations poverty is being used as a trump card. Feels like appropriation of other people's pain to score points in an internet argument. An argument that nice Cdn cottages shouldn't be called shacks, for fuck's sake. Off the scale inappropriate.

<rural canadian, single mom, previous welfare recipient credentials>

That too. Absolutely.

Are you comparing lower income women's lives--and since you used the word 'welfare', we all know you're talking about women, who make up the majority of welfare clients; women, whose choices and lives are limited by poverty and the difficulties raising children alone, without spousal support; poor urban women, a population that is statistically more likely to be battered by their male partner--to a fucking challenge using the word shack?

The White Knighting syndrome enforcing language policing in the name of disability rights is bad enough-and I'm sick of hearing how if you're disabled and disagree with it you're a self-loathing disabled person, now it's all over the place for just about anything. I won't pretend I'm surprised by this kind of bullshit, dogpiling is already considered oppressive in some circles, but you have my sympathies.

The White Knighting syndrome enforcing language policing in the name of disability rights is bad enough.

Amen. I am at the point where I believe this stuff to be sincere instead of thinly disguised fandom grudges about .05% of the time. Which is a shame, because the genuine discussions have long since been drowned out by the sound of all those axes to be ground.

I have to keep telling myself that the valid concerns remain valid, and it's hardly shocking that in any large group, there will be people who will be able to address the concerns in a sophisticated or sincere way, and there are people who will go at them clumsily or in bad faith.

I suppose we should be glad that fandom's come far enough that this is the problem, rather than "black characters don't get enough screen time to make vids for them possible!" or "I can't write characters of color, they are just tooooo alien in comparison with the actual aliens I write regularly" or "everyone in fandom is straight and white, right?" An era you and I lived through.

I suppose we should be glad that fandom's come far enough that this is the problem, rather than "black characters don't get enough screen time to make vids for them possible!"

No disagreement with you on that one.

My main beef, and I'm only speaking for my disabled self mind you, is that the attack on words like 'weak' and 'intelligent' comes from a place that appears as though there is a poor understanding of how language works and culture evolves.

I just don't want people to get discouraged because sometimes less-than-thoughtful things are said. The more traction an issue has, the more people will hitch their own stuff to its wagon.

At this point I don't bother with a lot of the disability rights blogosphere. Hell I used to try to like one of the group blogs until the woman who ran it declared making comparisons between the Holocaust and the genocides in the Americas was US-centric, it sounded so stereotypically college feminist. I'm not arguing there may not be limits to genocide comparisons, different cultures and histories and so on, but dismissing it as US-centric just floored me.

I'm not sure about fandom, but it just feels like it's about wanting to maintain the appearance of righteousness while going after all the right enemies in order to keep themselves at the top of the pecking order of the social blogosphere, possibly mixed with the fear if they disagree they'll no longer be accepted as part of the group.

What pisses me off the most about it is that apparently a lot of people are more bothered by supposedly ableist words than if a sex predator is a member of their community.

I...am making the choice not to click on the link, because I do not need the blood pressure spike this morning. But I wanted to say that this sure sounds pretty ridiculous to me, and also, I am sorry it ruined your night, and also, you are awesome, always.

Um, context is kinda missing here.

I mean, I'm in the South, have kids, and lived in a trailer for until 18 months ago.

The entry here (http://staranise.dreamwidth.org/285971.html) is apparently what it is about.

Still don't get what they're talking about, but using poverty in porn is always problematic. There's too many buttons to trip over, and too many people actually know what you're talking about. That's why rich people and/or fantasy settings are safer.

The thing is, though, nobody's using poverty in their Canadian Shack porn. staranise and others have come to that conclusion somehow, but it's completely erroneous.

mstly that sounded like more of the kind of wanking I used to hear growing up in bc; the meme itself sounds annoying as hell but I didn't see a personally-meant sideswipe there. 2 caveats: I've never lived in the South though I have lived in a car and occasionally out in the bushes, I didna have kids to safeguard so I had more options parents do not have. also: mind reading costs extra, so who am I to say what was meant.

can offer sympathetic ear, and u-r-a-friend noogies? (hopes he's not being rude)

*curls up with you*

Wait. Wait. People are getting worked up over the word "SHACK?" Seriously? Honestly?

...

...

...I got nothin.'

I... wasn't sure if I should respond, because the conversation is heated and also I feel that the OP is mixing up different arguments in a way that clouds the more serious issue (of First Nation poverty) and throws in problematic class assumptions.

However, I do think "shack" in the context of "what real people who live in the rural north of Canada have to live in" can be problematic. If you type "Canadian Shack" into google, you get Ces' challenge. If you type in "First Nations shack" into google, you get Shacks, slop pails on Wasagamack First Nation (CBC.ca). It's a crisis in Canada that we've totally failed to deal with. Me, personally, I'm not going to get up in arms about the Canadian Shack challenge, though someone else with legitimate problems with it might.

Seperis, again my apologies if you'd prefer that I don't try to redirect the conversation. I can always take it elsewhere and you're free to delete my comment.

Thank you for the further explanation and info! I appreciate it and your response.

This, yes.

The OP appears to be trying to make a post about the housing and infrastructure crisis in Attawapiskat and fannish appropriations of rural and First Nations poverty ends up making an incredibly misguided one about U.S. perceptions of Canadian (urban, middle class, white) national identity. I think the person who posted the comment meant to make a parallel between lower income women's lives and the lives of people on the Attawapiskat reserve, to suggest that it's inappropriate to write smut set in either location, but in the context of that post, which kind of oozes privilege (the discussion of what a "shack" is), it really fails and is offensive all around.

Also feel free to delete this.

No, response to someone else's asking for clarification on teh main issue is fine. I'm not objective enough at this point to summarize it without that particular horrific comment coloring my view of their arguments.

"Shacks" as temporary structures used for seasonal occupation, particularly as a base for hunting and fishing is a pretty damn established usage.

See, e.g., http://winnipeg.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-sporting-goods-exercise-fishing-camping-outdoors-ICE-FISHING-SHACK-W0QQAdIdZ345273234

Yes, actually, I mentioned over on DW that I didn't think the fic challenge was about First Nations poverty. Here, I was just answering why some people might have an issue with the word "shack" as it relates to people living in the rural north.

Okay, and now I'm really going to stop commenting like I promised!

No, I get it; if people are living permanently in shack-like conditions, wherever in the world, that's a very legitimate thing to be concerned about. However, I don't think that means that any story set in a shack is a creepy fetishization of rural poverty. I mean, I haven't read all the stories, especially the new ones, but I don't remember any of them being set in what would probably be more accurately characterized as a shantytown.

Yeah. Up here (in the rural north), we have trap-line shacks and ice fishing shacks and regular hunting shacks and supply line shacks on the snowmobile trails.

Unless there's a major difference in meaning across the border with my close neighbors to the North (very possible...the first time I learned what "bottom" was in England I was HORRIFIED and so was my British friend), 'shack' isn't inherently perjorative in common usage. Very context-based.

Hey, I'm sorry it made you feel so terribly! I think the posters in that thread were trying to equate the slashfics taking place in Canadian shacks with hypothetical ones in rural south USA in a welfare slum trailer. The gist, from context, is that they're equally appalling and shouldn't take place at all.

So, um, it's not intentional, probably just badly worded/contexted.

Couldn't be anywhere with poverty or urban poverty; it was rural south USA welfare slum trailer. I mean, maybe being a former inhabitant of such a location I'm too sensitive, but without intent, it's pretty much even worse.

Threatening to write it in a fit of classist outrage is...I have no idea what that is, but it's sick.

I'm sorry, I should have clarified. Whether or not there was intent, that was an offensive remark, and should not have been made. I personally don't agree with mockery as a way to bring attention to issues, but I truly think that we're probably all in agreement here about how devastating it is when people marginalise poor and neglected populations.

May I offer you a hug?

(deleted comment)

Thank you for saying something sensible about that whole discussion.

/random comment

I know you're joking to make a point, but can we just... not?

And lack of coherency doesn't mean there won't be people who have issues with pairing the word "shack" and what that means for people living in rural Canada, okay?

(seperis, you have IP logging on so you know who this is. Sorry for going anon, but I just don't want to deal any more.)

I never check IP unless someone is being offensive and/or trolly. NP.

*sends hugs*

*hugs back*

I am all out of energy for this kind of bullshit, in the general sense of having spent the better part of 35 years defending how and where I grew up, and in the specific sense of this was a longass fucking day where nothing went right, so... just. I get you, man. I know.

I've been arguing on tumblr with people who think male feminists should be excommunicated if it turns out they have ever in their life hurt a woman under any circumstances?

*random lightening up of the mood on this thread but:* Your icon is teh rock.

Heh, thanks.

omg and there it is again. *reels back in delight*

So many levels.

Argh... yes this kind of thing is really, really irritating.

I had a similar reaction to yours a few months ago upon reading someone's post who -while ranting against a supposedly anti-Chinese article- was sideswiping Europe apparently without even realizing it, and all her friends then cheerfully agreeing to her superficially politically correct remarks.

As a European myself, I took a rather dim view of the whole thing and regret to say I am still furious about it. Not that said person would care, of course. What? We are not American, so we are below dirt? Thanks anyway.

Well, never mind all that, I'll go check out this un-PC challenge!

*hugs from one of your usual anon stalkers*

I've gone away and thought about this for a few days and upon reflection am still very cross with the original post, which in my mind started the whole conversation off in the wrong tone.

Until I moved to England six years ago, lived my entire life on and around First Nations reserves. I've even been to Attawapiskat, which the staranise linked to information about. In contrast, many or even most Canadians have never been on a reserve.

Reserves can be very deprived and have a lot of problems, but they are usually also great, close-knit communities. Including Attawapiskat! They are more than a convenient example of 'shackland' and infrastructure crises to support a rant against a tongue-in-cheek internet challenge.

The whole conversation has put my back up something fierce. I feel like it has reduced both northern First Nations and Southern communities to nasty, dreary little places -- and I guess it is therefore no wonder staranise doesn't want to be associated with places like that.

staranise is a privileged twit.

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