seperis | The Borgias

Huh. Still watching.

The one thing that worried me--the thing that was make or break--was the show wouldn't know how to balance worldly corruption against religious fevor; the papacy was corrupt but it wasn't atheistic. They just really believed their actions could not be against God's work as they were the hands and body of God on earth.

Jeremy Irons is pulling off the dichotomy gorgeously. The coronation was everything I'd expect for a man who felt the mantle of God and what it meant. Being corrupt--especially in this period of time where corruption was standard--doesn't change the depth of faith.

In other news, five minutes in we have almost-incest. So they aren't even downplaying that. I forgot the racism against the Spanish was so prevalent before Alexander VI and Isabel of Castile and before the union of Spain and then joining with the Habsburgs and then the Bourbons.

Further note: Alexander's genuine horror at a Pope being poisoned was interesting. Alexander is an outsider as a Spainard; I don't think it ever occurred to him that being Spainard the Romans didn't believe he had God's mantle. This is fascinating. I didn't expect them to examine the racism that was part of Alexander's problems with the Vatican and the Roman cardinals as well as the racism of the Romans and Italians against the Spanish.

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I was a bit disappointed that the debut wasn't as trashy as I was hoping it would be, but I like your analysis. I'll watch a few more episodes before I make up my mind.

Mind if I add you?

Sure!

I was surprised too, but I like they didn't have a start value that was too high; then nothing is interesting. If the first episode is baseline, they can build from that instead of becoming too boring with too much work to shock the audience. And Alexander and Cesare did some awesomely shocking things; it's easier to appreciate that in escalation. And it makes them sympathetic without making them innocent.

It's also nice that the Borgias aren't being shown as the only or even worst villains, but on par with their contemporaries; the fact that the Vatican was normally very corrupt was shown clearly. Rodrigo's biggest crime right now is being Spanish, which was a serious issue in that time period. It surprised me that I completely forgot how strong anti-Spanish prejudice was in Europe during that time period, not just in the Papal states, but in the European courts.

...I loved the Borgias and Cesare and Lucrezia especially. They were such complex people. I'm hoping we see Machiavelli meeting Cesare. *crosses fingers*

It's also nice that the Borgias aren't being shown as the only or even worst villains, but on par with their contemporaries; the fact that the Vatican was normally very corrupt was shown clearly.

Very true, but I wish it was a tad bit more blatant-on the other hand, US entertainment doesn't handle the blatant well, all too often way overdoing it.

Some of the promos for the show annoyed me like with The Game of Thrones in the interviews. Sure, power corrupts, but it's mostly a cliche now, why not focus more on institutional problems, if not advocate the overthrow of it all together? But that's mass media entertainment for you.

I'm glad I know enough not to take the show too seriously, because after I watched the first half of I, Claudius, it depressed me because I knew there will probably never be another show like that again with that perfect combination of great stage actors, writers, and basis in history, at least for a television program. So I'll settle for the trashy aspect of this new series, and look in to renting the Tutors some time this week without getting my hopes too high.

But enough of my cynicism, have you seen the incest fanvids for The Borgias on YouTube yet? So right, and yet, so wrong.

...I loved the Borgias and Cesare and Lucrezia especially.

I always felt bad for Lucrezia, dying in childbirth is a terrible thing. It was far more normal back then (I'm sure it will be pretty soon thanks to the austerity trends), but I always felt more sympathetic about what she went through in life than the other members of that family. But I'm not watching that show for history lessons, I'll look in to source text anthologies of the period for that.

The Tudors I couldnt' handle for the historical problems; I also kind of hated Henry VIII beyond words.

I do like what Jeremy Irons is doing with Alexander VI. And Cesare is fantastic, and I want to see what they do with Guilia and Lucrezia.

Aside from other things about that appeal to my shallow side, he's the main reason I'm watching it.

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Are there any films or documentaries you'd recommend about the Tudors, including Elizabeth?

Edited 2011-04-10 09:14 (UTC)

There was this documentary years ago that was part of a series on British history. I only saw part of it while channel flipping. You just reminded me to check amazon again; I don't remember the title, but I remember it was part of this larger series that included The War of the Roses--all of it--and after reading Penman's novel on Richard III, I really wanted to see it. It was very good, but the ep stopped when Henry VIII first started breaking with the Church, so I was always curious to see how they handled the establishment of the Anglican Church and Protestantism taking root in England.

There was a fantastic one on Lady Jane Grey on the history channel a year or two ago which may have been part of it?

The Borgias

Interesting

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Re: Interesting

Re: Interesting

I like Jeremy Irons in anything

Re: I like Jeremy Irons in anything