seperis | i'd like to point out first, my del.icio.us tags include amtdi and non-con

Current Mood: awake

Entry tags:

rant

i'd like to point out first, my del.icio.us tags include amtdi and non-con

You know, I thought I talked myself down off this one, because frankly, Twilight is not great literature and mounting a defense takes up valuable time reading non-con amtdi porn.

But you know, I just feel that inspired, plus I ran out of Dean/Castiel reading and my son still has Twilight in his locker. Go figure.

I have to know something; did I miss the memo that I'm supposed to be ashamed of being twelve? My apologies; see, when I was twelve? I never really considered to form my actions to meet an arbitrary standard that would come into existence twenty years later on my reading habits, because that? Would have totally pulled the Gor novels right out of my hot little hands.

As in, please to be putting down your AMTDI non-con for a second while ranting on how Twilight is ruining young girls. I will totally be there when fandom as a whole stops finding aliens made them do it rape as a fun and lighthearted fanfic pasttime. I mean, I will be there, but I'll still be writing it. Hell, throw in eroticized slave-fic with idealized sexual slavery and falling in love with your enslaver controlling boyfriend who stalks you...wait.

Writer responsibility comes up a lot with this, which I suppose is fair when one is writing cross-alien-species sexual hijinks and one is struggling to portray those sensitivity, or the reality of slave trafficking in the modern world, or hell, magical healing cock after rape and lets toss in mpreg for kicks, because there's a genre that's incredibly sensitive and socially conscious. I have zero interest in writer responsibility, to be honest, except for one key points--did they tell a story? That's it; that's where it starts and stops, with some codicils of audience. Twilight was readable to a huge group of people.

Maybe the mystery is the plotline? Because I agree; I cannot imagine why anyone would enjoy a fantasy novel about two people obsessively in love with each other and would do anything to be together.

You may pile your under the bed romance novels over to the left, please; lets do this right. Let's blackball the entire romance novel industry already. I want petitions against VC Andrews, Johanna Lindsay, Judith McNaught, Catherine Coulter, Virginia Henley (Okay, I could stand to lose her), and anything set in Viking England with a wee Saxon lass.

Seriously. I get hating them for being bad, as beauty is in the eye of the beholder; shaming young girls for something they've found to love is edging right into the reason I'm trying to stop myself from ever using the term "Like a twelve year old girl" again in any slash fic I write. Which will probably be something I'll have to pick up on beta because comparisons to teenage girls as insults to men is surprisingly common.

Please lay off the girls. And remind me again how Seeds of Yesterday ended. For the life of me, I couldn't find it with my other VC Andrews work.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

So those of us who abhor AMTDI and non-con and slave-fic and all the other kinds of kink that make me want to rub fandom all over with a nice therapist... are totally okay to abhor Twilight! Score!

I'm sorry you have zero interest in responsibility. If I discovered an acquaintance of mine voraciously reading, say, the now-infamous novels of John Ringo, I'd be ready and willing to shame that reader! Friend of mine enjoying the daylights out of The Turner Diaries (famous white-supremacist novel), you bet I'd shame that reader! Or shun her. She doesn't even need to be 12 years old (or female).

Wow. That's an impressive display of self-righteousness.

Sure it is. But... are you really saying there's nothing you'll look at cock-eyed in a fantasy? My disapproval ranges all the way from "please don't show me that" to "I'm calling the police now," but you seem to be privileging the right to fantasy over everything else.

Which is all well and good, till somebody else's fantasy leaves its footprints on your forehead.

till somebody else's fantasy leaves its footprints on your forehead

???

So everybody who commits crimes of violence that have sexual components would not have done so had it not been for....badly written novels? Pornography? (As a feminist, I'm well aware of all the issues around porn and have not yet seen convincing evidence that porn causes rape).

One of the big accusations against certain types of fan fic writers is that we're somehow doing what we're writing about, or somehow unable to clearly distinguish between what we write about and "reality" (especially aimed at some sub-genres of slash and all real people fic writers). Thus the need to rub us "all over with a nice therapist" (a fantasy of yours that deeply disturbs me, knowing of the sexist misogynistic and patriarchal roots and practices of psychology/psychoanalysis)....

OK! Well, at least Alan Rickman is hot.

You seem to be reading me as if this argument hasn't happen a hundred times in fandom before. Hasn't it been reasonably established that at least some people find racist fantasies hurtful? Haven't there been arguments from here to eternity about whether or not the fact you're hurting someone else should be a reason to restrain yourself?

How did we get from what I said to "causes rape IRL"? How about "causes a rape survivor to freak out when it pops up on her flist unexpected"? Isn't that painful? Doesn't that kind of feel like footprints on one's forehead?

That's reader responsibility in creating their own environment. And the warning debate is old meme, so not even going there on that one.

(no subject)

vee-fic.livejournal.com - 2008-11-30 01:55 (UTC) - Expand

In fantasy, there's nothing I look at cock-eyed. I could care less if rape fantasy is de rigeur and idealized slavefic is the candy of the day. I don't just not look at it cock-eyed, I celebrate the diversity of human expression. I'm willing to rant why *I* hate rapefic, slavefic, x-fic, and what stories bother me, but the fact the writer took pleasure in what she wrote, in what she read, trumps my personal bias because I stopped being the center of the universe when I reached the age of reason.

Bring all of it. I may not like it, and it may squick me, but universally speaking, autonomy of imagination trumps my personal thoughts on yaoi every time.

I think your libertarianism is misguided, and like a lot of libertarianism it privileges one individual's freedom to pleasure over another individual's freedom from hurt.

That would work a lot better if I were libertarian.

(no subject)

vee-fic.livejournal.com - 2008-11-30 02:01 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

seperis.livejournal.com - 2008-11-30 02:23 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

vee-fic.livejournal.com - 2008-11-30 03:04 (UTC) - Expand

But where does that leave someone like me who gets off on slavefic, rape and humiliation in fiction? I mean, I don't doubt that patriarchy somehow caused my masturbation fantasies to be at odds with my ideological values, and I honestly tried to change that (from fourteen into my early twenties, actually until I found fanfic, I vetted my leisure reading on ideological criteria, e.g. preferably picking female authors with female protagonists, avoiding heterosexual romance plots and going for lesbian ones, preferring a radical left political agenda etc). For years. Because my fiction preference in porn and outside of it is highly problematic (like not just the porn, also my fondness for vigilantes and warrior orders for example). But I'm as turned on by rape humiliation fantasies now as I was when I was fourteen. And I'm not turned on by fiction or fantasies that has sex between equals. And no amount of feminist awareness or theory reading or shame has changed any of that.

I'm doing my best to be aware of the issues, so that the ideologies I think of as harmful (and that I obviously have a thing for in my subconscious) don't influence my actual actions, but policing my id just hasn't worked out. I can't just live up to that high a standard and unsurprisingly animal needs win out over morals, just like Brecht said, "erst kommt das Fressen, dann die Moral" -- only it doesn't just work for food before morals but also for sex fantasies, I found. I mean, I'm sure some people can be ascetics to not compromise their values, but they are probably the exception. I just make do trying not to harm actual people.

But where does that leave someone like me who gets off on slavefic, rape and humiliation in fiction?

Truthfully, it leaves me looking at you a little cock-eyed. You don't have to care what I think, of course. And, you're right, keeping it in fantasy is a lot better than bringing it to reality. Still, it's not a fantasy I'd welcome on my flist, and I would tend to leave a comm that featured fantasies of that nature.

To a certain extent, the big thing that bothers me in the no-holds-barred fantasy-positive perspective is the fact that fantasies of the forbidden become normalized, and appear to be less forbidden. I don't want to participate in a culture where things I deem rightfully forbidden seem normal. I am sure it is possible to explore the landscape of one's fantasies without normalizing the forbidden aspects; but I don't see that happen on the internet/in fandom very much.

I think that policing fantasies to fix patriarchy or racism is about as effective as abstinence only sex education to prevent teenage pregnancy. It doesn't help much, and may even hurt the objective.

Whether it was nature or nurture that made be get off on fantasies of being humiliated, raped and enslaved (and my very first masturbation fantasy was like that, I realized finding that hot earlier than even which gender I find attractive, and a good ten years before I read the first internet porn), it isn't going to change for me.

I do want patriarchy to change, and I hope that then what turns people on will be different too. And I'm all in favor of analysis of porn tropes and such and look at our fantasies with a critical eye. But I don't think it helps feminism to make masturbation fantasies shameful.

Fantasies are what they are, and they may be a symptom of how messed up we are, but they're not the cause, and I don't think reality can be fixed by making the disturbing fantasies we enjoy less visible.

Like I said: one person looking at you cock-eyed isn't exactly the Fandom Police. I obviously can't stop the greater majority from doing what it pleases.

What I can do, however, is refuse to participate. And in fandom, what I find myself doing is participating less and less, as attitudes become more and more stridently permissive. All fantasies are right and true; none of them are hurtful; it is never fair to ask for a public space to be mild or at least discreet. It's tiring, and distasteful.

To be honest, you wouldn't believe how many woman have rape fantasies.

Your belief that fantasies of the forbidden becoming normal, becoming seemingly less forbidden is skewed. Because, yeah it happens, but to a point and there is a lot more that goes in there than just fantasies and stories that would cause any such change in society.

I don't want to participate in a culture where things I deem rightfully forbidden seem normal.

Do you see your flaw with this statement? I deem rightfully... My cup of tea is not your cup of tea. That's as far as it honestly should concern you because unless there is some major disaster that leaves our world in chaos, rape, stalking, and all that, will never be deemed normal in our society.

I'd also like to suggest you read up on psychological studies concerning sexual fantasies before suggesting those of us who like our fantasies with a bit of kink need a therapist.

I also think s/he needs to read up on the racist, misogynistic, patriarchal and homophobic roots of the disciplines of psychology and psychoanalysis and maybe a good helping of the history of attempts to control women (and other marginalized populations) sexually while making sure the white male patriarchs get full access to whatever they wish, sexually, before prescribing therarpy for large sections of fandom!

After all medical clitorectomies and lobotomies and other forms of torture were routinely prescribed in the US during the 20th century for masturbating women and "feminists" and other deviant types deemed not normal...

(Edited to add second paragraph).

Edited 2008-11-28 23:29 (UTC)

Yep.

I have yet to find a decent way to point out that anything other than missionary style was taboo and forbidden in decent girls/society not so long ago. Hell, sex for any other purpose that producing children was wrong for women in general.

I don't pay for the ability to edit so =p

Even today, woman are scarred by the same ideas. They're still being raised to sex is bad, masturbation is bad, blah blah. Through out time there are incidents of woman being on the end of this forbidden nonsense. What in the world does this person think caused the change of society towards woman being more than a mantel piece? Fantasies are a show of our freedom, our psychological needs. I have no idea what some nice non-con AMTDI has to say about my psychological needs, nor do I care to actually dig into it but I'm pretty fine with liking it.

And a therapist? Would tell us why but they wouldn't do a damn thing to fix us. Basic psychology requirements will tell you why. Basics, if it ain't affecting your life or the life of others around you then it's not a problem. You're not going to be diagnosed with a phobia of clowns if you don't work/live with clowns, don't aspire to work/live with clowns.

Yes, my sarcastic remark showcases my thorough ignorance in all matters feminist and in the history of psychology. And psychoanalysis to boot! And bring up torture and mutilation while you're at it! That's a wonderful way to assure a polite and thoughtful conversation!

My cup of tea is not your cup of tea.

One woman's cup of tea is another woman's triggery experience. You know, I see people in fandom do big WOOP WOOP warnings and cut-tags when they plan to talk about dieting, weight, fat, self-harm -- but I see a staggering shortage of warnings and cut-tags for discussions of sexual felonies and other real-world painful situations. Why so sensitive about people's feelings on the one hand, and so insensitive on the other?

???

I'm not entirely which fandom you're talking about because the ones I'm in, the warnings and cut tags are there. In community posts. My own personal posts in my own journal are a different story. But stories in communities? Generally demand warnings.

I can go through the SGA and SPN fandom and copy the warnings if you'd like? But if you're talking about discussions in a personal journal? I don't warn or cut in my own personal journal for the discussion of kinks or for triggering content. I discuss self harm, anorexia/bulimia, suicide, depression without warnings or cuts in my personal journal the same way I discuss Non-con or slave play in my personal journal without warnings or cuts.

By using the word discussions in this, you have brought a bit of confusion as I was talking about kinky fantasies and stories which generally come with adequate warnings and if not, the rest of the community ask for it.

And obviously, we are not reading the same genres because in fandoms with a younger crowd, self harm, weight, suicide etc are far from warned at any decent amount.

I will point out that I never said there was no reason for warnings for kinks and that we were never discussing warning for kinks or sensitive topics. (And that's your difference as well.)

I am kinda curious as to what fandom you've been hanging out in that's not putting warnings on stuff and/or putting things behind cut-tags. Most writing/meta/discussion I've ever seen is clearly labeled, and if it's not, someone usually leaves a gentle reminder that others might find the content offensive or triggery...

The use of the phrase 'cock-eyed' bothers me, just because of a fic I once read an excerpt of on

weeping_cock that involved -- actually, I'm not going to traumatize everyone else by sharing the details.

But yeah. The Internet is a pit of spikes. While skimming a journal, you suddenly see multiple uses of a strange phrase and be assaulted by mental images on par with those of the lotus boob.

God, you had to remind me of the lotus boob. It was mentioned on journalfen and it's a daily battle not to click, despite the fact I know I will regret it for the rest of my life and possibly well into the next.

*twitchy*

HAH! I saw it for the first time on journalfen as well, clicked and ohgod I CANNOT GET IT OUT OF MY HEAD. It makes little twitchy things in my stomach shrivel up and die in horror. And MY POOR BREASTS argh just thinking about it makes me feel vaguely icked.

Please forgive me if I'm totally misreading your tone...

but I find your term "shame" interesting. While always open to discussion and debate ... what gives anyone personal the right to arbitrarily "shame" others or judge others? I mean, disagree, yeah. Debate, yeah. But shame or shun smacks of ... an innate disrespect for others, and an uncomfortably smug sense of one's own righteousness and moral superiority and that?

Is it's own kind of dangerous.

B

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only