seperis | i'd like to point out first, my del.icio.us tags include amtdi and non-con

You know, I thought I talked myself down off this one, because frankly, Twilight is not great literature and mounting a defense takes up valuable time reading non-con amtdi porn.

But you know, I just feel that inspired, plus I ran out of Dean/Castiel reading and my son still has Twilight in his locker. Go figure.

I have to know something; did I miss the memo that I'm supposed to be ashamed of being twelve? My apologies; see, when I was twelve? I never really considered to form my actions to meet an arbitrary standard that would come into existence twenty years later on my reading habits, because that? Would have totally pulled the Gor novels right out of my hot little hands.

As in, please to be putting down your AMTDI non-con for a second while ranting on how Twilight is ruining young girls. I will totally be there when fandom as a whole stops finding aliens made them do it rape as a fun and lighthearted fanfic pasttime. I mean, I will be there, but I'll still be writing it. Hell, throw in eroticized slave-fic with idealized sexual slavery and falling in love with your enslaver controlling boyfriend who stalks you...wait.

Writer responsibility comes up a lot with this, which I suppose is fair when one is writing cross-alien-species sexual hijinks and one is struggling to portray those sensitivity, or the reality of slave trafficking in the modern world, or hell, magical healing cock after rape and lets toss in mpreg for kicks, because there's a genre that's incredibly sensitive and socially conscious. I have zero interest in writer responsibility, to be honest, except for one key points--did they tell a story? That's it; that's where it starts and stops, with some codicils of audience. Twilight was readable to a huge group of people.

Maybe the mystery is the plotline? Because I agree; I cannot imagine why anyone would enjoy a fantasy novel about two people obsessively in love with each other and would do anything to be together.

You may pile your under the bed romance novels over to the left, please; lets do this right. Let's blackball the entire romance novel industry already. I want petitions against VC Andrews, Johanna Lindsay, Judith McNaught, Catherine Coulter, Virginia Henley (Okay, I could stand to lose her), and anything set in Viking England with a wee Saxon lass.

Seriously. I get hating them for being bad, as beauty is in the eye of the beholder; shaming young girls for something they've found to love is edging right into the reason I'm trying to stop myself from ever using the term "Like a twelve year old girl" again in any slash fic I write. Which will probably be something I'll have to pick up on beta because comparisons to teenage girls as insults to men is surprisingly common.

Please lay off the girls. And remind me again how Seeds of Yesterday ended. For the life of me, I couldn't find it with my other VC Andrews work.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

*G* So is the fanfic written with that same standard in place. The problem only occurs if we think the books will act as the model for girls, not that the parents who model behavior for their daughters are encouraging their girls to think that way. Otherwise, we're blaming video games for violence all over again.

The problem only occurs if we think the books will act as the model for girls

So... are you saying you don't think the books represent a larger problem?

Not any more than I think Grand Theft Auto is a problem. Both represent fantasy. Using them to base a real life is the actual problem, like using peanut butter for lube.

...okay, not sure about the peanut butter analogy there.

But why does the fantasy exist? Yeah, okay, I'm in complete agreement that fantasy =/= our real wants and desires, but fantasies don't just appear out of nothing. To me, the fact that a group, and not just a tiny group, of young women share and respond to the same fantasy is interesting. I'm not saying these people should be told not to read the books because they're going to run out and emulate Bella, because God knows I read some shitty "literature" when I was a teenager and I have yet to imitate anything from those, but I don't see the problem with people seeing this and saying, "Hey, tons of girls are into these books that glorify an unhealthy relationship. Maybe we should talk about that."

I think there's a conflation between correlation and causation and always has been with girls, the weaker sex, the influenceble, the sole reason for the fall of society. As a woman, I resent on behalf of my twelve year old self that my reading habits and fantasy life are on trial.

Asking why is human nature; changing the message to 'why are they doing this for this is wrong and we must protect their fragile minds' is paternalism in a feminist skin. Once again, it's making teh argument that women aren't strong enough/smart enough/bright enough to know what they are doing unless someone older/male/both is there to offer priceless guidance away to preserve their purity. Hell and no.

Once again, it's making teh argument that women aren't strong enough/smart enough/bright enough to know what they are doing unless someone older/male/both is there to offer priceless guidance away to preserve their purity.

You realize you just summed up the first two books, right?

I read all four. I never quite got that impression that it was other than teenage girl idealization of the perfect boyfriend and escapism. And I liked Bella. Go figure.

It looks like we're arguing about two different things here. You're saying it's bad to criticize a young girl's reading choices because her personal kinks aren't up for debate, because once you start debating someone's kinks you're getting into dangerous territory. I'm saying that their kinks are not the problem, the problem is the fact that we live in a society that says the escapism into the fantasy that a big strong man will take care of you forever and ever is okay. Our personal tastes and preferences don't arise from a vacuum, they come from the influence of the world around us. My critique is about our (as in, the English-speaking world's) general patriarchal society and the reason for this being a romantic ideal. There's a reason why the books aren't about Bella protecting, saving, and taking of Edward in the same way he does her.

I'm operating on the assumption that kink ("I find this sexy") and desire ("I want this for myself") are two completely different things. There's nothing wrong with liking Twilight or liking Bella/Edward, but there is problem with thinking the characters in these books and the romance as it is portrayed in the books is acceptable in real life. I actually give more slack to kids on this issue because God knows I was a moron when I was 16, and the crap I read didn't stick with me into my adulthood. I know several strong young women who love Twilight and still have great boyfriends who treat them with respect. But I have also seen grown women -- women older than both of us -- talking about how they wish they were in a relationship like Bella and Edward, and that Bella is an awesome character not on her own merit, but because Edward loves her. These are not women who are saying, "This is my own personal kink," this is women who are saying, "I want to be like Bella, and I want my partner to be like Edward."

Okay, this I agree. I'm dividing between kink as well, but with the codicil that teenagers for the most part won't get stuck in that particular mindset. Their fantasy life *should* be off-limits up until the time it encroaches on real life, which frankly, would not be subtle, as these books are not masterpieces of subtlety.

THANK GOD. I was sitting here going, "IS JENN PURPOSELY IGNORING WHAT I'M SAYING??? WHAT IS GOING ON HERE."

but with the codicil that teenagers for the most part won't get stuck in that particular mindset.

Yeah, I agree that most teens probably won't be thinking "I want Edward" when they're choosing their partners. I'm sure that some will, because there's always someone who takes this too far, but I doubt that will be the majority. Which, if I can repeat myself for the millionth time, the books themselves are not the problem.

No, I am there, I was sidetracked on that one.

...Jesus, I don't even want to think about choosing Edward as a life partner. *shudders*

i'd like to point out first, my del.icio.us tags include amtdi and non-con

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