seperis | i'd like to point out first, my del.icio.us tags include amtdi and non-con

You know, I thought I talked myself down off this one, because frankly, Twilight is not great literature and mounting a defense takes up valuable time reading non-con amtdi porn.

But you know, I just feel that inspired, plus I ran out of Dean/Castiel reading and my son still has Twilight in his locker. Go figure.

I have to know something; did I miss the memo that I'm supposed to be ashamed of being twelve? My apologies; see, when I was twelve? I never really considered to form my actions to meet an arbitrary standard that would come into existence twenty years later on my reading habits, because that? Would have totally pulled the Gor novels right out of my hot little hands.

As in, please to be putting down your AMTDI non-con for a second while ranting on how Twilight is ruining young girls. I will totally be there when fandom as a whole stops finding aliens made them do it rape as a fun and lighthearted fanfic pasttime. I mean, I will be there, but I'll still be writing it. Hell, throw in eroticized slave-fic with idealized sexual slavery and falling in love with your enslaver controlling boyfriend who stalks you...wait.

Writer responsibility comes up a lot with this, which I suppose is fair when one is writing cross-alien-species sexual hijinks and one is struggling to portray those sensitivity, or the reality of slave trafficking in the modern world, or hell, magical healing cock after rape and lets toss in mpreg for kicks, because there's a genre that's incredibly sensitive and socially conscious. I have zero interest in writer responsibility, to be honest, except for one key points--did they tell a story? That's it; that's where it starts and stops, with some codicils of audience. Twilight was readable to a huge group of people.

Maybe the mystery is the plotline? Because I agree; I cannot imagine why anyone would enjoy a fantasy novel about two people obsessively in love with each other and would do anything to be together.

You may pile your under the bed romance novels over to the left, please; lets do this right. Let's blackball the entire romance novel industry already. I want petitions against VC Andrews, Johanna Lindsay, Judith McNaught, Catherine Coulter, Virginia Henley (Okay, I could stand to lose her), and anything set in Viking England with a wee Saxon lass.

Seriously. I get hating them for being bad, as beauty is in the eye of the beholder; shaming young girls for something they've found to love is edging right into the reason I'm trying to stop myself from ever using the term "Like a twelve year old girl" again in any slash fic I write. Which will probably be something I'll have to pick up on beta because comparisons to teenage girls as insults to men is surprisingly common.

Please lay off the girls. And remind me again how Seeds of Yesterday ended. For the life of me, I couldn't find it with my other VC Andrews work.

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Wow. That's an impressive display of self-righteousness.

Sure it is. But... are you really saying there's nothing you'll look at cock-eyed in a fantasy? My disapproval ranges all the way from "please don't show me that" to "I'm calling the police now," but you seem to be privileging the right to fantasy over everything else.

Which is all well and good, till somebody else's fantasy leaves its footprints on your forehead.

till somebody else's fantasy leaves its footprints on your forehead

???

So everybody who commits crimes of violence that have sexual components would not have done so had it not been for....badly written novels? Pornography? (As a feminist, I'm well aware of all the issues around porn and have not yet seen convincing evidence that porn causes rape).

One of the big accusations against certain types of fan fic writers is that we're somehow doing what we're writing about, or somehow unable to clearly distinguish between what we write about and "reality" (especially aimed at some sub-genres of slash and all real people fic writers). Thus the need to rub us "all over with a nice therapist" (a fantasy of yours that deeply disturbs me, knowing of the sexist misogynistic and patriarchal roots and practices of psychology/psychoanalysis)....

OK! Well, at least Alan Rickman is hot.

You seem to be reading me as if this argument hasn't happen a hundred times in fandom before. Hasn't it been reasonably established that at least some people find racist fantasies hurtful? Haven't there been arguments from here to eternity about whether or not the fact you're hurting someone else should be a reason to restrain yourself?

How did we get from what I said to "causes rape IRL"? How about "causes a rape survivor to freak out when it pops up on her flist unexpected"? Isn't that painful? Doesn't that kind of feel like footprints on one's forehead?

That's reader responsibility in creating their own environment. And the warning debate is old meme, so not even going there on that one.

Well, yes and no. While I police my own flist assiduously, the normalization of "you may not restrict my desire" has made it impossible for me to participate in one of my current fandoms. I can't subscribe to any of the existing fic comms, because none of them have content restrictions, and all of them are populated with fiction I find triggery. My fandom before that, I was subbed only to a gen comm for the same reason, and even there we once had a clueless posting of the same triggery material, by someone who doesn't understand the meaning of the phrase "no pairing of any kind."

Do I want to be subbed only to gen comms? No; I like a lot of different kinds of fiction, including several kids of sex. But no comm that allows sex disallows the material I find triggery, and so I end up subbed to almost no comms where sex is allowed at all.

How did we get here, in fandom, where permissiveness can be so restrictive? It is not I who changed.

In fantasy, there's nothing I look at cock-eyed. I could care less if rape fantasy is de rigeur and idealized slavefic is the candy of the day. I don't just not look at it cock-eyed, I celebrate the diversity of human expression. I'm willing to rant why *I* hate rapefic, slavefic, x-fic, and what stories bother me, but the fact the writer took pleasure in what she wrote, in what she read, trumps my personal bias because I stopped being the center of the universe when I reached the age of reason.

Bring all of it. I may not like it, and it may squick me, but universally speaking, autonomy of imagination trumps my personal thoughts on yaoi every time.

I think your libertarianism is misguided, and like a lot of libertarianism it privileges one individual's freedom to pleasure over another individual's freedom from hurt.

That would work a lot better if I were libertarian.

I guess... I don't know what else to call it? I mean, you're pro individual liberty to fantasize, right? With no restrictions or particular interest in any consequences. You may not consider yourself a capital-L Libertarian (and certainly not on all issues), but that's pretty much the concept in a nutshell.

Do you disagree with my assertion that you are privileging one individual's freedom to pleasure over another individual's freedom from hurt? If so, how would you characterize it?

Reframing the world in absolutes is like treating the universe as a binary equation--either 0 or 1, and while it sounds like a strange and mystical world, I've never been there and I won't presume to dictate policy. But I'll give it a spin around here.

If so, how would you characterize it?

Not requiring the eradication of the world's cactus population so the potential that they will hurt me will be eradicated.

You seem inclined, in this and other threads, to equate disapproval and even (my word) shunning with banning or eradication. This is as gross an overstatement as any of my admittedly sarcastic remarks, but I don't think you're being sarcastic. Do you really think that a bunch of women yammering on the internet is the equivalent of banning? Looking at the state of fandom as it is right now, do you really think that my disapproval has had any eradicatory effect?

I would very much like to control and narrow the venues for fannish fantasies that are potentially hurtful, that is true. But... I'm not sure my wishing it has the power you seem to think it does.

Reframing the world in absolutes is like treating the universe as a binary equation--either 0 or 1, and while it sounds like a strange and mystical world, I've never been there and I won't presume to dictate policy. But I'll give it a spin around here.

I'm afraid I have no idea what you're trying to say with this bit. Is it in relation to my description of libertarianism?

i'd like to point out first, my del.icio.us tags include amtdi and non-con

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