huh. squee range.

[seperis]

Okay, so finally I sat down to sort through my bookmarks to read discussion on cesperanza's new fic--because I have done my homework. (Really. I mean, not all! But you know, some random amount.) So I deserve a reward. And chocolate milk.

Except--um. Is anyone discussing it *not* a member of academia or just really conversant with the themes of that? This is odd--but this is the first time in fandom I've felt my sheer lack of a degree in anything this strongly, because I am seriously *not able to follow* or really get into any discussion I've seen so far. But mostly, I just don't get what's being discussed. Okay, it's more the 'why' of what is being talked about. But it's also the feeling that I'm reading something in German but in this case, even throwing it through the translators isn't helping, as I have no translators and seriously. What are you people talking about?

It's very--I don't know. I wish for squee, but no place is squeeing on a level of "oh my god this is so awesome remember the part with the chair room" but mostly on the "did you notice the dissertation and footnotes of the x, y, z, it reminds me of that time back when I was teaching Very Horrifically Difficult Literature..." I am on a different squee range.

Er. That's kind of an exaggeration, but mostly not, because I'm serious, ,I am seeing in otherwise accessible ljs this entire--I don't know. It's like I'm missing some huge chunk of context. I keep having to fight down the urge to ask "WHY ARE WE DISCUSSING FOOTNOTE FORMAT" or something, because oh my God.

If I ask for an explanation of the squee range, is that going to show just dreadfully my terribly non-high-literature-inclinations so much that all will lose respect for me or something? I'm seriously kind of dazed by how inaccessible I'm finding a lot of these conversations.

Help? I'm kind of moving from dazed to the 'frustrated and annoyed' place and that can only end in staring resentfully at my laptop and eating way too much haagen-daz.

ETA: I now have people doing threads of squee and non-academic meta discussion. I have found nirvana. Yay!

Comments

[gaffsie.livejournal.com]

Much as I respect academia and all, I'm not sure I can face fandom if it continues on a path where squee is measured in academic potential of a fic.

That would bother me too, except I don't think that fandom's really going in that direction. There will be bouts of academic meta from time to time, spurned on by certain fics or whatever, but I don't think we are in any danger of being over-run by meta-textual analysis. For one thing, all of us aren't academics, and even those who are did presumably get into fandom for the fun of it.

I just see this one particular instance as an opportunity for those people to combine their professional know-how with their hobby. It's something different from what's usually going on, and therefore an attractive prospect. But at its heart fandom is all about the love for the story and the characters. I refuse to believe that one fic is going to change all that.

(and now I'm the one who's not making sense)

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Well, one fic wouldn't. But the range of discussion of a fic has been moving steadily toward the academic range for a while now. This is just the first one that a.) I loved and b.) I literally didn't understand what was going on in discussion. The range has been more in issue-themes--racism, misogynism, imperalism, etc--but at least with those, even if I'm tired of them, I have some knowledge of them. This discussion went *completely* to a place that not only I couldn't follow, I didn't want to.

Again, this isn't a criticism of the occurance--fandom is stuffed to a high percentage with academics who totally love this stuff. And gruding their joy isn't anything any sane fangirl is going to do. But I am watching in curiosity that the real discussions, when they occur, aren't as often about the fic as the themes of the fic, or in this case, the historical literary tradition of the structure of the fic. That's moving to an abstract place that isn't, to me, nearly as fun. It feels too far off from the point of the story--which should be, to tell a *story*--and into the concept of a story, and etc. If that makes sense.

[gaffsie.livejournal.com]

Maybe you're right. I would be scared, except I'm too much of an optimist for that.

If this shift towards a more academic slant to the meta really is happening, why do you think that is? I mean, fandom has always had its share of academics. Why now and here? Is it a matter of who sets the tone, of fangirls growing up, or what?

And you're absolutely right, looking at fics too abstractly really does suck the fun out of it.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

I don't know that it is. But I did get vaguely freaked out after I posted my latest fic when the discussion was about what conscious decisions I made to emphasize Joan being a woman and contrasting. Not in a bad way, but it did--tred close to where I'm not on my own solid ground.

I don't know that it *is* going that direction; but, when looking for story discussion, I'm not hitting story squee nearly as often as story-concept-squee, or theme-squee, or God help me, the *damned issue-fic squee* that makes me want to cut things, because it drives me nuts when fic stops telling a story about the characters and becomes a vehicle for a meta point. I do my long recs on fic occasionally when I love an author and think it would make her happy to get an entry all about her, but also to satisfy the part of me that wants fic discussion to at some time talk about the fic--what happened in it, what decisions were made, was this in character, was that in character, does that fit the universe, did that scene work, oh my God CHAIRSEX YAY!--and that seems to be--to me--getting thin.

Maybe it's alwasy been like that and I never noticed, or maybe--I don't know for sure. I'm noticing *now*, though.

[gaffsie.livejournal.com]

Well, the reasons for the meta on your Joan story probably was that the story itself dealt with those issues in a more indepth way than most genderfucks*. You laid the groundwork for those kind of discussions with your narritive.

I haven't really been consciously looking for story squee, so I can't really comment on the frequence of it. All I know is that I see a lot of show-squee. Maybe they're all squeed out? ;)

*Let's not beat around the bush here: usually the sociological issues of gender aren't considered in such fics. It tends to be more along the lines of, "I have a vagina now, let's put it to good use!" or "Hey, that woman looks a lot like me... OMG she is me, and she's married to Rodney? - Hmmm, maybe I should fuck *my* Rodney." Always-been-woman fics doesn't seem to be quite as common (and the few I've seen before yours and Pru's frankly weren't that interesting).

[seperis.livejournal.com]

*G* Lots of show squee and show-anti-squee.

Random on genderfucks: I agree and again, not, but this is one of the things that also get on my nerves when people write Issue-Fic, or any fic, is that many take a route of extreme realism combined with hard line acceptance of status quo. Short: it sucks to be a woman in a male-dominated career, be harassed, etc etc etc then *leave it* there. Not only are the positives rarely explored, there's also an undercurrent of almost resigned understanding that no, this will not change, this has not changed. While yes, sometimes we don't want an idealized world, rewriting real life as it stands and then showing why it sucks, without offering anything else rally doesn't do much for me as a reader, and it's not even the escapism; it's the damned implication that it's alwasy like this, all the time, no way out unless it's a miracle or alien intervention; I want the *proactive* elements of trying and failing and trying and almost getting it, and trying and succeeding, because there *is* success. And I've rarely seen Issue-Fic that takes the realistic route also get around to covering teh realistic And Then They Succeeded Realistically and Awesomeely Route. It's like those people that always say they tell you the blunt and honest truth when they don't, they just tells you waht sucks.

Er. And this is way beyond the range.

(I haven't read Pru's yet; the excerpt she posted in my lj freaked me out; I'm not sure if she's going to the Issue Above All and Sacrifice the Actual Characterization Place, so I'm waiting until she finishes to skim.)

[gaffsie.livejournal.com]

It's a bit like social realism in movies then? More often than not movies tend to either be pure fluff or gritty and depressing stories about coal miners dying horribly. :/ I guess it takes a leap of faith on the writer's part to *not* choose to use a black-white world view. All of us know that the world doesn't work like that, but maybe we don't trust other people to realize that as well? Or maybe it's a question of the writers not thinking that they are capable of bring up the hard issues and keep a positive tone too without losing that sense of realism?

I'm by no means an experienced genderfuck reader since I've never had the urge to read that kind of stories before girl!John (John is to blame for a lot of my new kinks). I personally haven't seen that many Issue-fics, but that might be because I'm not looking for them. Also, I think it's easier to find things that makes you go "bleh," rather than "Yay!". It's just the way the human mind work. I find fluffy, non-issue genderfucks disturbing, so that's all I see, whereas you focus your ire on the depressing Issue ones. ;)

Pru's fic is scary, because the portrait of McKay she paints is utterly believable. It *would* be depressing except you still get the sense that there is love there, just distorted. Jane herself isn't a tragic figure per se, she's just in a difficult situation.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

*nods* Yeah, I just don't buy that McKay at all. It feels too close to character bashing and OTT Rodney, which is funny in humor, but here? I got very uncomfortable. *shrug* Totally ymmv.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Continuing because I realized something.

When it shifts there--when the discussion goes there--most of the time, it's been in smaller groups. But someone on my flist actually commented on something like this earlier this week, which yes, does explain why I actually said something--that she had liked the shift to covering Real Life Issues in fic, which I am totally against on a aesthetic level. If it fits hte universe, the characters, the story, if it *adds* to waht we know, yes. But the feeling that fic is--hmm. A discussion among fans, yes, but more than that, a discussion among fans *about something happenning in teh real world* using the convenient vehicle of my fandom--no.

This is drifting off-topic, because Cec's fic doesn't cover this. But it's the same--problem that's beginning ot bother me in general and I think this is a part of it.

[gaffsie.livejournal.com]

If it fits hte universe, the characters, the story, if it *adds* to waht we know, yes. But the feeling that fic is--hmm. A discussion among fans, yes, but more than that, a discussion among fans *about something happenning in teh real world* using the convenient vehicle of my fandom--no.

I couldn't agree more. Fandom shouldn't just be valued as a vehicle for RL issues; it's valuable in itself.

Didn't this happen a lot around 9/11? At FF.net at least, there was a virtual avalanche of fics that were just used to vent out the anxiety and fear people felt.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

God. *facepalm* On my *list* some poor kid pasted a fic that was--questionable in that sense. I'd be harder on it if I could actually rmember it, but all I remember is my initial reaction of *SCREEN THAT* and then stopped myself from doing so, then thinking, God. This cannot end well.