huh. squee range.

[seperis]

Okay, so finally I sat down to sort through my bookmarks to read discussion on cesperanza's new fic--because I have done my homework. (Really. I mean, not all! But you know, some random amount.) So I deserve a reward. And chocolate milk.

Except--um. Is anyone discussing it *not* a member of academia or just really conversant with the themes of that? This is odd--but this is the first time in fandom I've felt my sheer lack of a degree in anything this strongly, because I am seriously *not able to follow* or really get into any discussion I've seen so far. But mostly, I just don't get what's being discussed. Okay, it's more the 'why' of what is being talked about. But it's also the feeling that I'm reading something in German but in this case, even throwing it through the translators isn't helping, as I have no translators and seriously. What are you people talking about?

It's very--I don't know. I wish for squee, but no place is squeeing on a level of "oh my god this is so awesome remember the part with the chair room" but mostly on the "did you notice the dissertation and footnotes of the x, y, z, it reminds me of that time back when I was teaching Very Horrifically Difficult Literature..." I am on a different squee range.

Er. That's kind of an exaggeration, but mostly not, because I'm serious, ,I am seeing in otherwise accessible ljs this entire--I don't know. It's like I'm missing some huge chunk of context. I keep having to fight down the urge to ask "WHY ARE WE DISCUSSING FOOTNOTE FORMAT" or something, because oh my God.

If I ask for an explanation of the squee range, is that going to show just dreadfully my terribly non-high-literature-inclinations so much that all will lose respect for me or something? I'm seriously kind of dazed by how inaccessible I'm finding a lot of these conversations.

Help? I'm kind of moving from dazed to the 'frustrated and annoyed' place and that can only end in staring resentfully at my laptop and eating way too much haagen-daz.

ETA: I now have people doing threads of squee and non-academic meta discussion. I have found nirvana. Yay!

Comments

[aurora]

And the dogtags; I originally thought they were talking about Rodney wearing John's, except the timeline was wrong for that, too, but argh. I am so overthinking.
Yes! I thought that when that scientist (Bender) mentioned Rodney wearing dogtags, they were John's (which would also explain Rodney blushing), but John only gave them to him before the wedding, which is after the first wave of people left. At first I thought that maybe Bender was one of the six diplomats from operation Snow White, but he wasn't and yes, confused.

(hope you don't mind me butting in)

[seperis.livejournal.com]

No no feel free! I was trying to decide if maybe the team had them already, you know? I'm kind of sitting in that place.

(there is no butting in during discussion! There is only discussion!)

(And still squeeing on the chair sex and politics and etc.)

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Hee! Yes, exactly.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

*dies laughing*

[emrinalexander.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you posted this because I feel exactly the same way and I thought maybe I was the only one going "Huh?" - and this is even though I worked with academics long enough to know they speak their own, esoteric language and unless you're in the field it might as well be Sanskrit!

[emrinalexander.livejournal.com]

You are not the only one! I liked the story, but I don't see it as ground-breaking or epoc making or The Fanfic Of The Century or any of the other OTT comments I've seen people make since it posted. It's good writing, because Cesperanza is a good writer, and it's interesting, but it didn't make me cry or have an epiphany either *G*.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

God yes. When even the fanworks based on it just hit a meta place I can't follow, I get freaked out and worried. It was very--something.

Squee. I want squee. Preferably in shorter, less terrifying words.

[emrinalexander.livejournal.com]

The marriage threw me out of the story too. OK, I see the political rationale for it, but there was no reason for John to actually have sex with Teyla and I felt like that was kind stuffed in there. Rodney was having a difficult enough time dealing with the situation and I was kind of appalled that John would be that (a) thoughtless and (b) unable to walk away with his pants zipped despite the temptation. Which also didn't make sense to me, since he'd been characterized as being very very gay in orientation prior to that.

[aurora]

I was trying to decide if maybe the team had them already, you know? I'm kind of sitting in that place.
Maybe? But what about flushed!Rodney? :D At first I thought that maybe he associated the tags with the dirty, dirty things John did to him when he gave Rodney a pair of his own tags, but that also doesn't make sense, because I got the impression that Rodney kissed him for the first time after Elizabeth's announcement. ??

(God, the multiple orgasm chair scene. I was making tiny whimpering noises, because Ces was feeding my John/Atlantis kink LIKE WHOA with that part).

And I'm having a great time reading the 'John/Teyla Sex: yea or nay?' discussion, because that part bothered me as well, but I can't put my finger on why exactly.

[niqaeli]

Huh.

My squee for that story is--sort of meta. Only not like *that*. I know enough about academic writing to know she got the flavour of it and nothing else. My squee was all in how this was such a *sideways* way of telling a story, 75% from the historians and we get to see their infighting and how most of them have some of it right and some of it wrong (and some are just fucking crazy), and then the 25% of What Really Happened story woven in neatly, and I thought the truly great thing was that the Outside Historian Point Of View stuff gave us information we'd have never gotten from just the story itself had she written the succession of Atlantis as an ordinary story.

Also, flailflailflail, the thing with the CHAIR. And, yes. I have kind of been hiding from the discussion on this story for pretty much exactly the reason that I don't know academic writing and I can't appreciate the academic writing geekery in the story.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

*nod* I really loved it *so much*--but I seriously think a lot of the discussion is less about the story itself, and is too much into the OMG LOOK AT THE COOL STRUCTURE excpet they use larger words and fewer capslocks and language that makes me twitch, while I am still "I love when Atlantis secedes from Atlantis. What did you think of that bit?"

[emrinalexander.livejournal.com]

It wasn't necessary - I bought the political marriage thing. I didn't buy that totally in love with Rodney Completely Gay John suddenly had a hard-on for Teyla and didn't have enough sense to just walk away from that - especially since he KNEW Rodney was having a hideous time dealing with just the marriage thing.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

*nod* I am enjoying it too, especially how it relates to the later scenes. did you see the anonymous above? I hadn't thought of that.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

I have a theory. *g*

Feel aboslutely free to disagree. I FINALLY HAVE DISCUSSION IN MY LANGUAGE. This is making me intensely happy.

http://seperis.livejournal.com/504940.html?thread=12297836#t12297836

[emrinalexander.livejournal.com]

Thank you - Elizabeth's characterization had me going "Huh?" because there's AU, yes, but the woman in the story wasn't anybody I recognized from canon at all.

[emrinalexander.livejournal.com]

I loved the secession thing - but then I have a kink for Atlantis declaring itself an independent republic *G*. I have more trouble with the fact that the I think there wasn't enough detail from the characters' POVs - we see them just plunge into planning (I loved Rodney saying things like "Ask the Minister of Culture," and "The kind of atlantis is making me lunch!") but I was asking myself "Where's the fear? Where's the trepidation? Where's the How the Fuck DO We Make This Work?" This was very quickly dealt with...I got the feeling towards the end that she was so caught up in the historical inserts that the SGA guys kind of got lost in the academic shuffle. For example, after John gives the equivalent of the Fire When Ready, Gridley order...I have to struggle through an epic POEM to find out he was in a coma for several weeks/months/whatever it was? Where is Rodney's POV on this? It would've made it much clearer and been more effective story-telling.

[nymphaea1.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly. Beyond the character assassination of Teyla--who I do think absolutely and in no uncertain terms would not do that to her friend, that was exactly my problem with it. John had just spent a great deal of time freaking out about Rodney's reaction to it, is written as very gay and as someone to whom sex had not been terribly important in general. And yet he's conveniently suddenly just having sex for reasons he never bothered to very much explain? I could buy Teyla and John maybe having a sudden unexpected moment of mutual attraction that they both had to relucantly say no to. I could even maybe have bought a kiss. But full on sex, no.

If she wanted the sex to be an issue she could have done away with the magic baby machine. If John had had to sleep with Teyla to produce a child for Atlantis it would have made the situation a lot more realistic and complicated. A bit squicky with the implications that Teyla has to be a baby machine herself, but a lot more realistic at the same time.

[aurora]

did you see the anonymous above? I hadn't thought of that.
I did, and yeah, me neither. But it kinda makes sense?

It's weird: this story is 55,000 words long and yet I feel it should have been much, much longer, because I'm stuck with tons of 'yeah, but what about this or that?' questions.

[cold-poet.livejournal.com]

*bounces up and down and points at you like a LOON*

YES. THANK YOU. I found it was actually HURTING my enjoyment of reading I have been trying forever to explain to my friends who really enjoy that sort of thing why, as a person who writes constantly and reads voraciously, I hated English classes with a passion. And that just nails it on the head.

As a big damn theater geek you'd think I'd be all over Shakespeare, but I'm not. And poetry makes me puke. But I used to love them both, with a passion. But by the end of my first year of college I couldn't stand either of them because they were the primary focus of all of the "pick this apart and examine it and discuss it and write REALLY BORING papers about it." I can no longer enjoy poetry because I read it feeling like I'm missing the right answer or reading it the wrong way.

So, yes. Loved the story, loved the format, and the humor of the differing viewpoints, and bickering historians, I enjoyed this on a very deeply geeky intellectual level, as well as an "omg John so WOULD!" and flailing level - but I have stayed very very quiet on the subject, because I just feel out of my depth on the conversations about it, so All Hail the Great and Powerful Seperis for being the first to stand up and say "But I just want to squee, ya'll!" *G*

[emrinalexander.livejournal.com]

I like the idea of the whole thing being symbolic, but it was already that without the sex *G*. That neither Teyla or John seemed to realize what kind of further kick in the head that was to Rodney just didn't work for me. And I tried reading the story the second time deliberately skipping the post wedding sex scene and the story still worked the same, so why have it in there in the first place?

[emrinalexander.livejournal.com]

AHA! YES! You brought up the baby machine which is EXACTLY my other objection to "insert het sex scene with John and Teyla here". The having an heir with the machine thing is explained in great detail, played up over and over, and totally removes any reason for them to engage in full-on sexual congress AT ALL at any point. (Which is later underlined by the casually tossed out fact that John and Rodney later have children together using the same machine!)

[cold-poet.livejournal.com]

Oh, honey I think I might beat you with the not-good-fangirl worries.

I wish the sex on everybody's part had been left out. Entirely. (I saw below, you were already spoiled a bit, but I won't be anymore specific :)

I read fic for the plot, and while I like the JohnandRodneyTrueLoveForever idea I really just usually don't see any point behind actually writing out the sex. And here it...it kept throwing me out. I like the expressions of love and devotion and trust that have nothing to do with sex. (but I'm one of those types who doesn't automatically associate sex and emotion, so that might be part of it)

I think the story could have been that much stronger without the (IMO) gratuitous sex.

So, see? I'm pretty sure I just committed heresy in fangirl-land. *G*

(and side note to Jenn: your SGA/SPN is the perfect example of the kind of fic I love, plot heavy, slash undertones, not-gratuitous sex in small doses that drive the plot forward and make you feel more for the characters. As a reference point. ;)

[cottontail.livejournal.com]

I've recently come to this same conclusion about fic. Not with regard to this one, because I never got far enough to read the sex. But in particular when it comes to writing my own stories. I just hate trying to write the sex scenes and I finally realized I just don't have to. If the story is good enough and has plot the sex doesn't need to be detailed out like it so often is. :)

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Good point. I didn't really see the plot-forwardness of it either, to be honest. But weirdly, realizing it was a Ces story, and keeping in mind 3 Lovers, I kind of half-expected it, which why it didn't shock me. Just made me feel bad for Rodney. Which I hate to do, because he has half a fandom to do that for him. *grins*

[cold-poet.livejournal.com]

Non-thinky squee - And then I saw his face and thought, 'Oh, my God: he's extended his whole 'Leave no man behind,' ethos to the entire Pegasus galaxy."

Pretty much owns my soul and summarizes what I LOVED about the story, completely. *G*