Charming:

Continuing adventures in authors with--um, "issues"--with fanfic (from Clarivoyant Wank).

"Fans who write non-porn stories about TV shows are a different kind of writer. If they love the shows, which are a group production to begin with, that much, what the hell, they probably don't have the taste and imagination to write anything original anyway." - [personal profile] aberwyn

Not sure how to interpret the 'porn' bit. Completely entranced minds utterly riveted by this bit of wisdom really want to know. Because my sex scenes are kinda derivative off of like, biology. I know! No imagination. Except that one I didn't post, but you try working marsupial-esque and see what you come up with. (Unless you are [livejournal.com profile] justabi, because you already did.)

In case those of us who write fanfic off of textual works and not tv were feeling left out, we are processed cheese and hamburger helper.

There was also something about how it's like embroidery with patterns or something, but I lost point of the analogy, but I was getting the feeling the gist was "Look at me! I have imagination! By my definition at least." Or something.

No, seriously. She has her own definition.

Has anyone said anything new or interesting about this? Derivative arguments lack imagination. By my definition at least.

ETA: Corrected link.
Page 1 of 3 << [1] [2] [3] >>
neotoma: Gabriel bitchfaces (Gabriel bitchface)

2010-05-14 01:40 am (UTC)
What does this person write, so I can avoid their work forevermore?

(no subject)

[personal profile] neotoma - 2010-05-14 01:51 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[personal profile] darkrose - 2010-05-14 02:49 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[personal profile] parhelion - 2010-05-14 03:46 am (UTC) - expand
cesare: Zooey Deschanel looks askance (zo - sideways glance)

2010-05-14 02:12 am (UTC)
It makes me laugh that she slams the Wicked books, which have probably outsold her output by a factor of ten or more. I'm sure there's no jealousy involved in her judgment there at all.

(no subject)

[personal profile] cesare - 2010-05-14 04:04 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[personal profile] esther_asphodel - 2010-05-14 02:57 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[personal profile] cesare - 2010-05-14 04:05 am (UTC) - expand
neotoma: Grommit knits, and so do I (GrommitKnitting)

2010-05-14 03:12 am (UTC)
I just got the 'embroidery kit' analogy. :fume:

I'm tempted to comment in my nastiest temper, because apparently she doesn't respect crafters because we aren't "creative" when we do our crafts.

No, we're *re-creative*, doing interpretations of work that someone else did originally -- not unlikely artists or dancers or anyone else doing performative art. Variation and theme are what it's all about.

And until she post pictures of her stunningly original cross-stitch wall-hanging, she can sit and spin.
cesare: Cute drawing of Teyla with wings (sga - teyla- flying! by chkc)

2010-05-14 04:06 am (UTC)
I just want to say, I love the point you're making and how you're saying it here.

(no subject)

[personal profile] darkrose - 2010-05-14 09:28 am (UTC) - expand
brownbetty: (Default)

2010-05-14 03:17 am (UTC)
Man, I don't know what to make of that. Like, it's not even clear to me whether she thinks the real perverts are the people who write porn, or the people who don't.
majoline: picture of Majoline, mother of Bon Mucho in Loco Roco 2 (Default)

2010-05-14 11:41 am (UTC)
That is my problem as well. She is confusing.

Wanky ideas should be more clearly laid out.
happydork: A graph-theoretic tree in the shape of a dog, with the caption "Tree (with bark)" (Default)

2010-05-14 04:17 am (UTC)
That's so delightfully silly! I can't even be annoyed, I just think it's cute. Especially, "As I said, it's personal opinion only. Ignore it, and you won't feel sad. :-)" Who can feel sad when faced with that smiley?
starfish: keyword: Robin bukkake. (Robin bukkake)

2010-05-14 11:41 am (UTC)
But I like Hamburger Helper! I mean, it beats plain ground beef hands down.

(I took the high road and didn't point out her error -- "embroiders" for "embroiderers". But another very bad analogy.)
lim: baby Spock peeks over the bottom of the icon (Default)

[personal profile] lim
2010-05-14 02:11 pm (UTC)
lol, the singing bit really tickled me. Um, yeah, I sing counterpoint to the radio, and different words, and sometimes completely different songs if they mesh pleasingly. And I never charge my neighbours for listening! What an horrific waste.

I'm imagining her sitting there in her local pub, crying bitterly as people sing different words to Happy Birthday. What a mean little world she must live in.
arasigyrn: Joker card and Ace of Hearts (Default)

2010-05-14 04:55 pm (UTC)
Followed the link and I didn't get past the start of the second page of comments. Looks like she's deleted. D:

It's a pity because there were some really good points being made.

2010-05-14 01:03 am (UTC)
I wonder what that says about those of us that read the fanfic Do we not have enough imagination to read real books?

2010-05-14 01:05 am (UTC)
You are cheese whiz and spam, okay.

...you know, I saw a dip recipe with those ingredients once, now that I'm thinking about it.

(no subject)

[identity profile] quatre_k.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 01:06 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] seperis.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 01:07 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] quatre_k.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 01:10 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] seperis.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 01:17 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] quatre_k.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 01:21 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] seperis.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 01:24 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] quatre_k.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 01:25 am (UTC) - expand

2010-05-14 01:16 am (UTC)
i'm thinking that the people behind Wicked (book, play, whatnot) are doing just fine for a job...and indeed, that they will never EVER have to work again.

2010-05-14 01:17 am (UTC)
Yeah, I'm thinking the people of Wicked sleeping on their great piles of money and acclaim aren't crying into their pillows at night about what she thinks.

It's probably their lack of imagination.

2010-05-14 01:23 am (UTC)
Argh, I hate this whole thing so much >_< I lose soooo much respect for authors when they bitch out fandom, especially when their argument boils down to them complaining about how their fans are not-creative. HOW IS THIS ANY WAY TO TREAT PEOPLE WHO LOVE YOUR BOOKS????

If they were creative then maybe they wouldn't be like, fans of her books or something? Yeah, I always get lost in these arguments, too.

(no subject)

[personal profile] katekat - 2010-05-14 04:20 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] nakki.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 04:25 am (UTC) - expand

2010-05-14 01:21 am (UTC)
Yet another case of Someone Being Wrong On The Internet.

I used to write gen humor for Blake's 7. Now, THAT took imagination.

2010-05-14 01:24 am (UTC)
Come on, give points for that bit on the hamburger helper. That was classy and original. By someone's definitions, I'm sure. Since we can make up our own, you know.

2010-05-14 01:30 am (UTC)
Random thought about the needlepoint analogy thingie. I was under the impression that most needle point designs boil down to a pattern you trace down, whether you bought or found the design in a craft book, or whether you create the design yourself. So, is a design only creative as long as you don't actually create anything with it?Or do you have to do it freehand in order for it be creative.

2010-05-14 01:39 am (UTC)
I could actually feel my grandmother reaching through the force to slap her around.

I assumed needlepoint started with a pattern too, and while I'm sure a lot of craft people are also able to draw, I am not one of them.

I wonder what she'd think of that quilt that was based on my grandfather's photography? This totally lacks imagination, right? (https://englanddesign.com/quilt-gallery/353/Open%20Season) Not to mention creativity and skill.

1st Place Fabric of Our Cultures Show, TX, 2000
Best of Show, IQA, TX, 2000
Viewers Choice, AQS, KY, 2001
1st Place, San Diego Quilt Show, CA, 2001
Best of Show, Mid-Atlantic Quilt Festival XII, VA, 2001
Best of Show, 1st Place, Oklahoma City Winter Quilt Show, OK, 2002
Best of Show, Indiana Heritage Quilt Show, IN, 2002
2nd Place, Viewers Choice, Three Rivers Quilt Festival, IN, 2002
2nd Place, Viewers Choice, Three Rivers Quilt Festival, IN, 2002
2nd Place, Quilters Heritage Celebration, IL, 2002
Best of Show, Quilt Odyssey, PA, 2002
Best of Show, Quilt Odyssey, PA, 2002
2nd Place, 28th Quilt Celebration, Rockhome Gardens, IL, 2003
1st Place & Viewers Choice, Sew Near to My Heart, OH, 2003


As you can see, no one liked that quilt all that much.

::Waves::

[identity profile] missmollyetc.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 02:07 am (UTC) - expand

Re: ::Waves::

[identity profile] seperis.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 02:10 am (UTC) - expand

Re: ::Waves::

[identity profile] missmollyetc.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 02:17 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[personal profile] cyprinella - 2010-05-14 02:09 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] seperis.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 02:11 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] othercat.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 02:26 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] seperis.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 02:31 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[personal profile] fyrdrakken - 2010-05-14 07:23 pm (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] lebannen.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 03:55 pm (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] dear-sweet-lana.livejournal.com - 2010-05-15 06:52 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] lebannen.livejournal.com - 2010-05-15 09:53 am (UTC) - expand
ext_1453: (Default)

2010-05-14 01:31 am (UTC)
Why do all of these authors that hate fanfiction have stupid analogies that don't make any sense? Oh, right! Because they don't know what the hell fanfiction actually is.

I did try to parse together the needlepoint thing and I laughed that she's basically comparing it to paint by numbers. Which is so true. Except where she seems to think that we're just following the numbers, anyone who knows anything about fanfiction knows that we take the same paints and paper and paintbrushes and make art that's so much more than the picture that was given to us.

We draw way the hell outside the lines and some of us are making freaking three dimensional oragami art out of it and it's awesome.

2010-05-14 01:40 am (UTC)
We totally orgami the numbers' ass.

Your analogies are much better. And original! *grins*

2010-05-14 01:33 am (UTC)
Oh, God, I shouldn't have read this. SO MUCH WRONG ON THE INTERNET, and now the desire to (futilely! it will be futile!) engage and attempt to correct is nearly overwhelming. I want to hit the "post comment" button SO BAD, and be all like--community! interaction with source material! dialogue with canon and with each other! quality writing! sexuality YES IT IS LEGITIMATE! For God's sake, what is your problem, even! I am leaving you this comment pretty much so that I will not go leave HER a comment. Christ, I am so angry. I'm going to go bake something and try to calm down.

2010-05-14 01:42 am (UTC)
*grins*

To her, this is the creative equivalent of hamburger helper. (https://englanddesign.com/quilt-gallery/353/Open%20Season)

Weird, my grandfather? Thought quilts based on his pictures were kind of amazing. But he is not a novelist breathing the rarefied air of creativity. He's just one of those professional photographers who make derivative work off of nature, you know? Hacks.

(no subject)

[identity profile] frostfire-17.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 04:18 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] seperis.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 06:25 am (UTC) - expand

2010-05-14 01:36 am (UTC)
Someone want to tell me what she's written, so I can avoid it?

2010-05-14 01:44 am (UTC)
Something called Deverry? I've never heard of it, so--that may say something. There may be Celts and dwarves involved. I don't know if you've heard of those things--I understand she uses totally new material because otherwise it lacks imagination.

(no subject)

[identity profile] feanna.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 03:21 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[personal profile] terrio - 2010-05-14 01:57 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] forked.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 02:19 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[personal profile] cyprinella - 2010-05-14 02:27 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[personal profile] burnishedvictory - 2010-05-14 07:36 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] forked.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 12:50 pm (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2010-05-14 05:24 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[personal profile] cyprinella - 2010-05-14 02:27 am (UTC) - expand
ext_1107: (Default)

2010-05-14 01:38 am (UTC)
ajshfhjd

ok, should not have clicked on the link. not only did i get confused for a second, i got annoyed a lot after.

so instead i will go back to staring at this (http://roga.livejournal.com/319975.html) until i go back to happy

2010-05-14 01:45 am (UTC)
...holy God, I thought that was John sheppard and then read the caption

I feel the need to go stare at it until I can be sure I can see the difference. For a long time.

(no subject)

[identity profile] elaran.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 01:46 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] mistresscurvy.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 03:00 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] lurkerlynne.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 07:17 am (UTC) - expand

2010-05-14 01:41 am (UTC)
omg! Another one... meh. Why cant some intelligent pro-fanfic person who knows some of these people irl step in and lay down the smackdown or at least stop them from shoving their asses on the internet? #coughmsnovikoranybodyelseidkjustmakethemstopcough#

This latest at least had some new far fetched and illogical analogies, not the same tired rapey stuff!

2010-05-14 01:46 am (UTC)
I will give her a lack of rape metaphors--that was refreshing.

I don't know--I kind of like knowing who to avoid, you know? Plus, really, is never not fun to mock them?

(no subject)

[identity profile] teh_ace.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 02:24 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] seperis.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 02:30 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] teh_ace.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 02:51 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] seperis.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 03:29 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] teh_ace.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 03:35 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] seperis.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 03:37 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] teh_ace.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 03:44 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] seperis.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 03:50 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] teh_ace.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 04:02 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] seperis.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 04:06 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] teh_ace.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 04:23 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] seperis.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 04:38 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] teh_ace.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 04:53 am (UTC) - expand

2010-05-14 01:49 am (UTC)
elandrialore hit the nail right on the head. The embroidery analogy is all smoke-screens and dust. I mean, if you think about it, every bodice-ripper romance novel has a specific plot to it and those are considered 'original'. Plus there are so many novels, books, plays based on other things and yet I bet aberwyn would say they were original.

Just ridiculous to say that fanfic writers don't have taste and imagination. I've read many fanfic stories that were better written, had a better plot and were more brilliantly done than the so-called original stories.

2010-05-14 02:12 am (UTC)
Aberwyn is going on about how it's different for some reason. . Her arguments for the Aeneid are--special, to say teh least.

(no subject)

[identity profile] delle.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 05:18 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] archaeologist-d.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 12:24 pm (UTC) - expand

2010-05-14 02:15 am (UTC)
This is just...what is this open season? A slow news day? They're all waiting to hear back from their editors and find themselves with time on their hands?

It consistently boggles my mind that these professional authors whose creativity should push them to investigate and understand differing points of view (a side effect of, you know, creating believable characters!) should be so dense about fanfic. It's like they never picked up a book and loved it.

As for those ridiculous needlepoint/hamburger helper/processed cheese (the OT3 of her heart apparently), I just...I don't even know. I have this theory that most professional authors are feral fans who never learned to share with the group and this Kathryn Kerr isn't doing much to dissuade me.

2010-05-14 02:17 am (UTC)
I have this theory that most professional authors are feral fans who never learned to share with the group and this Kathryn Kerr isn't doing much to dissuade me.

Oh man, what i wouldn't give for someone to write a long essay comparing them to feral fans. *eyes wide* God knows they do it enough about us; we should return the favor.

(no subject)

[identity profile] missmollyetc.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 02:22 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] malkingrey.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 02:22 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] seperis.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 02:26 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] missmollyetc.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 02:27 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] malkingrey.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 02:50 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] missmollyetc.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 03:14 am (UTC) - expand

2010-05-14 02:16 am (UTC)
hobby: noun, an activity or interest pursued for pleasure or relaxation and not as a main occupation

How's THAT for a definition?

2010-05-14 02:18 am (UTC)
Oh, logic. Come now. Logic doesn't take imagination.

(I could make bad responses using her little entry for the rest of my life. Somehow, it never gets old.)

(no subject)

[identity profile] cleito.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 02:21 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] seperis.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 02:23 am (UTC) - expand
reginagiraffe: Stick figure of me with long wavy hair and giraffe on shirt. (Default)

2010-05-14 02:18 am (UTC)
Has someone added her to the Fanlore Wiki yet?

2010-05-14 02:22 am (UTC)
Someone should.

2010-05-14 02:19 am (UTC)
What I want to know is why it's usually authors whose books are not particularly generative of fanfic who make the most noise about being against it.

I can understand -- without sharing their sentiments -- those writers who are upfront about admitting that they dislike fanfic because the mere thought of fanfiction about their characters squicks them out. A squick is a squick, and there's not much to be done about it one way or the other. It's the ones who proceed from their personal squick to sweeping generalizations about fanfiction and those who write and read it, that I fail to have sympathy for.

2010-05-14 02:22 am (UTC)
Did you get to the part explaining how Vergil wasn't writing Homer fanfic and that's totally different? It's kind of glorious.

(no subject)

[identity profile] malkingrey.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 02:38 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] seperis.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 02:44 am (UTC) - expand

2010-05-14 02:38 am (UTC)
....is it bad that because you made me look at the incredibly rage-making idiot, I now want the link to the marsupial fanfic?



Some things you just have to see for yourself...

2010-05-14 02:42 am (UTC)
OH man, you will thank me. Only justabi could have pulled this off.

Such a Pretty Face (http://smallville.slashdom.net/archive/35/sucha.html)

(no subject)

[identity profile] crown-of-ice.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 03:20 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] seperis.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 06:28 am (UTC) - expand
ext_9649: (tonight we dine in hell)

2010-05-14 02:38 am (UTC)
wait just one damn second. just. hold up.

just from a cursory examination of her Geocities page from 1996 (http://www.deverry.com/), she makes her living ripping off Tolkien.

by my definition, that's bullshit.

2010-05-14 02:43 am (UTC)
God, her webpage hurts me inside. GET A POST WEB 2.0 WEBDESIGNER.

Oh, wait. That would be derivative of her.

(no subject)

[identity profile] traveller.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 02:45 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] seperis.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 02:47 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] traveller.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 02:50 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] seperis.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 02:51 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] traveller.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 02:55 am (UTC) - expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] seperis.livejournal.com - 2010-05-14 02:59 am (UTC) - expand
Page 1 of 3 << [1] [2] [3] >>

Profile

seperis: (Default)

Tags

Quotes

If you don't send me feedback, I will sob uncontrollably for hours on end, until finally, in a fit of depression, I slash my wrists and bleed out on the bathroom floor. My death will be on your heads. Murderers.
--unknown, BTS list


That's why he goes bad, you know -- all the good people hit him on the head or try to shoot him and constantly mistrust him, while there's this vast cohort of minions saying, We wouldn't hurt you, Lex, and we'll give you power and greatness and oh so much sex...

Wow. That was scary. Lex is like Jesus in the desert.
--pricklyelf on why Lex goes bad


Obi-Wan has a sort of desperate, pathetic patience in this movie. You can just see it in his eyes: "My padawan is a psychopath, and no one will believe me; I'm barely keeping him under control and expect to wake up any night now to find him standing over my bed with a knife!"
--Teague reviewing "Star Wars: Attack of the Clones"


Beth: god, why do i have so many beads?
Jenn: Because you are an addict.
Jenn: There are twelve step programs for this.
Beth: i dunno they'd work, might have to go straight for the electroshock.
Jenn: I'm not sure that helps with bead addiction.
Beth: i was thinking more to demagnitize my credit card.
--AIM, 12/24/2003


I could rape a goat and it will DIE PRETTIER than they write.
--AIM, anonymous, 2/17/2004


In medical billing there is a diagnosis code for someone who commits suicide by sea anenemoe.
--AIM, silverkyst, 3/25/2004


Anonymous: sorry. i just wanted to tell you how much i liked you. i'd like to take this to a higher level if you're willing
Eleveninches: By higher level I hope you mean email.
--LJ, 4/2/2004


silverkyst: I need to not be taking molecular genetics.
silverkyst: though, as a sidenote, I did learn how to eviscerate a fruit fly larvae by pulling it's mouth out by it's mouthparts today.
silverkyst: I'm just nowhere near competent in the subject material to be taking it.
Jenn: I'd like to thank you for that image.
--AIM, 1/25/2005


You know, if obi-wan had just disciplined the boy *properly* we wouldn't be having these problems. Can't you just see yoda? "Take him in hand, you must. The true Force, you must show him."
--LJ, Issaro, on spanking Anakin in his formative years, 3/15/2005


Aside from the fact that one person should never go near another with a penis, a bottle of body wash, and a hopeful expression...
--LJ, Summerfling, on shower sex, 7/22/2005


It's weird, after you get used to the affection you get from a rabbit, it's like any other BDSM relationship. Only without the sex and hot chicks in leather corsets wielding floggers. You'll grow to like it.
--LJ, revelininsanity, on my relationship with my rabbit, 2/7/2006


Smudged upon the near horizon, lapine shadows in the mist. Like a doomsday vision from Watership Down, the bunny intervention approaches.
--LJ, cpt_untouchable, on my addition of The Fourth Bunny, 4/13/2006


Rule 3. Chemistry is kind of like bondage. Some people like it, some people like reading about or watching other people doing it, and a large number of people's reaction to actually doing the serious stuff is to recoil in horror.
--LJ, deadlychameleon, on class, 9/1/2007

If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, then Fan Fiction is John Cusack standing outside your house with a boombox.
-- Tweeted by JRDSkinner

Style Credit

  • Style: New White V.2 for White Spaces v.2
January 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 2019